You're going to love this episode. It's with Dave Van Horn of PPR Capital Management. Dave is the founder of the company, the executive chairman of the board. He has a lot of experience in different aspects of real estate, and distressed note, purchasing and management and also Capital raising. And just a lot of entrepreneurial ups and downs, and Dave's had a ton of success but it wasn't always easy. That's for sure. We talk It's quite a bit in the beginning about Dave's adversity, that he faced with his family life when he was a child and the divorce of his parents and the splitting of his family, essentially, his siblings were, you know, half of siblings went one way and half went together. And how many of his siblings didn't turn out so well as far as, you know, their success and health, now, they're all doing well and the siblings all get along. So in that sense there was a lot of It's perfect for the for, from adversity to abundance, but we talked about how Dave was a painter real estate agent a contractor managed a title. He ran a title company loan originator? I think you know when it comes to residential real estate, there's not many aspects. The Dave hasn't touched and now they're in their commercial and multi-family space as well. PPR is a big company in this space. In the distressed note space. They raise a lot of capital and days had a lot of success. I mean, he does humbly mention toward the end that if you were given 10 million dollars today, wouldn't really change his life. So that might give you some indication of the financial success. Dave has had, he's a very humble guy. You gotta have to pull it out of them as far as the abundance and success that he's reached but this is a very relatable episode even if you May not reach the levels, he reaches has reached. I should say, you know we do talk about financial hardship as well as relationship hardship and even a Health Challenge that shut down essentially shut down one of his businesses. So buckle up this is a really good one investors. Have you ever felt.
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Loan from start to exit, visit by Phi, L s.com to see how you can get started today. That's bi fil s.com Welcome to the form adversity to abundance podcast. Are you an entrepreneur or aspiring entrepreneur? Then this show is for you. Each week, we bring you in Paxil stories of real people who have overcome painful human adversity, to create a life of abundance.
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Join us and you will experience the power of true stories and Gain. Gold Knowledge from Founders who have turd poverty into prosperity and weakness into wealth. This podcast will encourage you through your health relationship and financial challenges, so you can become the hero in your quest for freedom. Take ownership of the life, you are destined to live turn your adversity into abundance. Welcome everybody, to another episode of the, from adversity, to abundance podcast. I am your host Jamie Bateman. I am thrilled today to have with us. Dave Van Horn. Dave, how are you doing today?
Unbelievable. How about yourself?
I am doing great. We so Dave is the, the founder of PPR Capital Management and also the executive director, and we can get into that later. And I for The Listener out there, I have a lot of respect for Dave. I followed Dave through the years and certainly the five or six years that I have been in note investing space, But even before that, through Bigger Pockets and some other avenues, but I know you have had a lot of adversity and a lot of abundance in your life. Dave, and we're going to get into that. So for the Listener out there once you drill down a little bit more on some more context as far as who you are, what you're up to.
Today. Yes, sure. Like I said you mentioned, I am executive chairman of PBR so you know I run the board oversee the CEO, we have a new CEO of BP are up until recently though I was president and CEO for the last several years. And we just celebrated 15 years of PPR, we were PPR note company today. We're PBR Capital Management so put a name shift that a branch shifts and things are good, so we're excited. And we don't just do notes and mortgages anymore, we also do some commercial real estate as well. So our funds, we have a fun that's real estate back assets. It's a little more Diversified than it was when we started out. So that's pretty much and I came from the real estate World previous to that. I was a contractor over the years, I have done several things. I have had various licenses real estate license. Insurance license was a Property manager owns a title company for a while, so I had done a lot of different things over the years, but in recent years, was mostly a fund manager and ran a company and scaled it. Things like.
That. Yeah. That's, you know, you're, you're humble and I think you're selling the selling it shorts slightly. And hopefully I did say executive, chairman, not executive director, but regardless, so talk to listen about What kind of what's the little bit more about the size of pp are? Kind of some of the funds, you have managed in recent years, to give them a little bit more context.
Sure. We try to think, how many funds that we had since the beginning, 9 or 10? I would guess I would have to go look, we have a lot of entities. There's probably 50 entities, even we're not a super large shop Personnel. Wise were around 30 people, but we do have some JV partners that have Sizable shops as well. So we you know we have a JV partner on the west coast as significant number of people. They also have a trade desk in New York, and then we also have some other JV Partners on the commercial real estate side and some of their teams might be a dozen or 15 people. That kind of thing with folks that we partner with. So we would probably have more employees. You know if we did everything ourselves, we, we may have 150 employees at that point, as far as assets under management were in the 900 800 million range and private Equity wise were probably just under 300 million if private Equity. But we had always say we recycle a lot of that money so it's a little bit different from you know if we were just say a commercial real estate shop where, you know, it's kind of like you put money to work and you wait, you know, we're constantly probably about 75% of our business, the money's moving You know, rapidly, you know, it's going out, it's coming back, it's going out. Something that kind of thing, which is a little bit different from no typical real estate fund. That's sure Gilmore, you know, complacent or whatever.
Static. Yeah. Yeah. We're stuck. Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense and I know I.
Remember one reason acids. Um, it's good question. Most of them are today or in Georgian, you know, the like we have some multifamily. It's rounded a thousand units, is mostly in Georgia and Texas. You know, we're kind of newer to the space but loan lies. Yes, definitely. Well, over 12,000, probably, since we started, it's common for us to probably by about 3 to 400 million a year. We saw a lot of Oreos by several hundred Oreos, a year just to give context. So it's right. And that's formation wide mostly, you know, to be honest, the commercial real estate's. Typically, in the Sun Belt, or I There is or maybe a couple tertiary markets but it's kind of where we're focused and yeah, more of a diversification type of.
Yeah, and you, like, you said, you moved into that a little bit more recently. And that's one of the things I remember, Chris, 70, and I had you on our Good Deeds podcast few years ago. And I remember that one of the big lessons I took from that was you said just tell me what the rules are and I will figure out a way to win. So I Remember kind of what my biggest takeaway was flexibility and adding you know, tools to your tool belt if you will. So that no matter what happens with the economy, no matter what happens with legislation you can react and still profit and still, you know, do good. So hopefully, we can dive into that in a little bit, but sure, as far as Diversity goes, let us jump into your backstory. I know before we hit record we touched a little bit on a couple of types of adversity that you faced. Once you start a start where you'd like to as far as you know, in your history, and we will pick it up from there.
Yeah, yeah. I mean I think everybody has some adversity but then again we kind of grateful for where I am to you know. So I feel blessed and you know things can always be worse, right? But I think we all go through adversity and I think a lot of life is how we respond to things. Definitely, one of the biggest challenges for me especially growing up was, you know, I was one of six kids and My dad left, my mom, when I was eight, and that was pretty traumatic. So, you know, you know what it's like when you have, we were blue collar type family. But when you take the bread winner, out of the picture, things go downhill very quickly. Sure. And then also, my family had gotten split in half at, so I had three older sisters and two younger brothers and our family literally got chopped in. Ass, you know, eventually my sisters went to live with my father which at the time they probably thought it was a good idea, but it was really bad idea and then their lives were dramatically impacted. You know, I had one sister to went to prison for, you know, sentenced to 15 years. In prison had a sister who went to reform school and had a sister to God, you know, She was a mom very early, you know, those kinds of impacts and my, you know, my one sister was a heroin addict. So a lot of things were — from that horse so to speak. And you know, I was fortunate to be on the right side of that. A couple interesting things come out of that was not everybody fairs the same way. You know, like And impact of something like that. You know, to look at me probably on the surface. You're like Dave has it halfway together, right? Ignore will be, he's done. Okay, but not everybody came out of that, okay? It's what you learn. Not everybody responds the same way, a couple of weird things that happen one was me and my siblings, we never fight. You know how you will see cases where people, you know, I haven't. Talk to my sister or something. Yeah, yeah, me and my siblings. We literally, there's no, there's no argument. There's now because I think because we were separated ice is a weird dynamic, right? We think about it. So it's kind of interesting now, there was a time period where I hadn't spoken to my father and a good five-year period. Now, most people can't Envision not speaking to their father for five years, right? So you know, later on, you know, I was able to actually reconcile with him and basically kind of forgive types situation before it passed, but it was but the whole time as a kid though, it was a different Road, right? Because your what I quickly realized even at he's an import grade. I had my first job, you know, it was you had to do it on your own? There was no, there was no backstop. There was no safety, net now did give you trust issues, you know, like where you were reluctant because if you can't trust your parents, Who can you trust? Can I trust right away? That's kind of what ends up happening. Yeah. And then you know, you know there's yeah there're weird things that happen that you can't do. The normal kids can do now, it's a different way. Your parent. I think passes away because it's that's like can't be helped kind of thing. You know. It's just a different vibe. You know what I mean. Then it is in a case of you know you wonder did your parents want you or not? You know, those kinds of things, you know, it's just a, it's a harder thing. Yeah, the big one, you know, sure. It was early on that. I had an impact in everything from my education to my, you know, you have basically had a bootstrap, whatever you did, you.
Know? Yeah. I appreciate you sharing because and again, I know, I know you have talked a lots of other podcasts about how to invest in notes and how to, you know, and your successes and things. And what we're trying to do is highlight Right? You know, some of the pain that people go through and, and to highlight the fact that you can get through it and you can pull out lessons and not to say your you'd like that, you know if you had to do it over again, that you'd want that it to go that way. But sounds like you have developed at least a work ethic and a good relationship with your siblings through that.
Channel. You know? We it's great and the other weird thing that happened even though I was like a middle child, I felt like the oldest of the family I was in because of the way it was and then it's more of a sudden. It was almost like I say the bigger brother father type role in a way that probably wouldn't have happened. It's a bad news all together, you know what I mean? Sure. Like it looking back on it so it did change some things but yes, it the good news is everybody's pretty good and for the most part today and but Not everybody, fit comes out of that unscathed. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I did better than some of the other folks. That's really what it was.
So why would you say that as I mean, you know, I know there are factors beyond your control but you know, looking back. Why would you say you did better than the others did?
That's a good question. Well, some of some I think some people, you know, I don't want it. Sit down bad against my siblings. Are you sure some people have more of a blame or victim type of mentality? Sure. Maybe I had less of that. And then I kind of figured it would things were on my own and then I had some lucky things. You know you make your own luck and I always worked really hard. Like my mom was very good work ethic, very spiritual woman, you know. And we no. What are jobs where we did our best? You know, is not kind of mentality from, we were always on time. We could be poor, but we could be clean, you know, things like that are just ingrained in you and you are on you were honest and you have integrity and things like that even though you didn't have much. So those kinds of things carry forward a lot and you know, things just, you know, I did get fortunate, I was in, you know, I had really good grades and when I was in eighth grade. My mom kind of conned me into taking an entrance exam to a private school and I go mom you know we can't afford to go there blah, and she goes don't worry, just see how you do, you won't get in. Don't worry to see how you do and you kind of know where that when I ended up getting a four-year academic scholarship and that dramatically changed the trajectory of my life because all of a sudden, I was just surrounded. The by wealthy folks. And yeah, it was a very accelerated program and it got me out of my comfort zone. It was actually in the next state over it was out of the neighborhood. It was out at the normal school and it dramatically changes things, just that one.
Scenario, you know? So and I personally I don't believe in self-made millionaires or you know because every we all have some kind of help along the way. Some kind of luck. You can it's, you know, you can debate that all day long. So, maybe you got a lucky break there, but the same time you had a really good grades. So you wouldn't have gotten in had you not done the work in front of you? So, you know, I think there's a.
Lesson in that combination. I mean. Yeah, for sure. And then, you know, once I got through there, that it was. Alright, how do I get to college? And I am kind of embarrassed to this, but it took me five and a half. Years to get a four-year degree, but I paid the first couple of years out of my pocket, you know, I went to a state college. I didn't, I actually had gotten into Drexel, but I couldn't afford to go to Drexel really, I am from the Philadelphia area. So I had gone to a state school in Pennsylvania, which is obviously last and I had to take out some student loans to finish, but I was trying to pay it as I went kind of thing, which looking back wasn't So bad but it wasn't like, I was, you know, some of the wealthier kids in school. Obviously, she could study more, but they didn't have to work as much. I was actually working for days a week and going to college is. So it was that's one of the advantage that I think something. Like when I look at my kids and my grandkids, they're pretty well off. They don't have that kind of adversity, right to where they turn, you know, have to take out a lot of dads, or they can, you know, they don't have to work and then wake up and go to school and try to study and cram and, you know, life was much harder. I, in fact, I almost flunked out which is kind of ironic now you look back and you're like your report cards your bank account when you get older, but all right. Yeah, but your, but when you're young, you know, a lot is meant, you know what's your, what's your degree? But you're crazy case level? What you're that kind of thing?
Yeah, yeah. Looking back, it's nobody. Nobody walks around. And asked me what my GPA was, right. But.
No one asked me to see my report card or anything these days which is fine, because I don't know that I care about. Yeah.
So now I think a lot of what you have said already, a lot of people can relate to definitely sounds like you have overcome a lot from your childhood and, and you touched on. And I mean it's all about how you respond to adversity. So what? Walk us through from, you know, from college. Yeah, I know you have a long story as far as all the businesses you have run and everything like that and startups and everything but walk us through kind of from college through today. Highlighting more of the adversity that you have come.
Across. Yes sure you know I had met my wife when I was like 19 we have been married almost 40 years but my you know, my wife. If I had gotten pregnant before I finish school, so I would it was really tough getting done. And then when I get done school, I couldn't even afford an apartment. You know, I had a business degree, which technically were a dime, a dozen at the time. And imagine going the college taking out loans, working real hard going from five and a half years. You get done, and he can't get a job. And I was yeah, imagine that right. And then I was working in construction. And I could afford an apartment, so I had to move in with my mom. And, you know, we were splitting the bills and, you know, is really growing, I would come home from work, all filthy and everything. And one day my mom says, well, why don't you try like real estate? That's what I did. I started going to school at night and became an agent and then it was working towards my broker's license. And I was, you know, I had I was handy because I had worked in construction and I had Access to the MLS but I didn't have capital, and I was taking an investment course to get my broker's license and the guy teaching is said, how many people in here have credit cards, and we all raise our hand. And he goes, how many people here buy houses with credit cards and all the hands went down. I remember going home that night, I tell my wife, I go I think we're going to buy houses and credit cards, and she was like that's not going to affect my ability, goes a long as it, and I am like now that's a different credit card to worry about it and I don't recommend I am doing this by the way. So hopefully this doesn't translate like that but this was prior to cash advance fees and things like that. And what I ended up doing was I would write a credit card. Check to myself pay cash for a property, fix it up, move a tenant in refinance the house pay back the credit card and next thing you know I bought probably 10 or 12 houses like that and over time they kept upping my limits. Next thing you know I had like a half million in credit card access and you know, I kept then I would continue the cash flow in any money. I pulled out on the reef, I was tax-free. So I have known some wealth and some cash flow and then a few years went by next thing, you know, I had a couple million dollars in equity and I would be end up being a lender to other contractors. So, okay that's kind of how I got into the note business. Initially was hard money, private money, lending back and forth to other like-minded folks like myself, you know, we came, you know, Thanks for each other, using our lines of credit on our properties and use in our qualified plans, retirement accounts. And I.
Know you do have a, your book that goes into some detail on his own? Oh, that's as well. So, but did you have any kind of real estate Mentor at that time or how are you besides, before you got into the lending space? And just, you know, real estate, you know, I came.
Through a weird place in the beginning because I came in as an agent. So and I believe it or not. Hi, there were years of 1990, I was top agent in the company and there was like, 250 agents, and like, six offices, that kind of thing. And so I get okay, wasn't. But I also worked as a conscience as a contractor full-time wives agent which was a little bit crazy because I had the wrong, you know, I didn't understand leverage. I thought if you worked harder, you know if you worked real hard, you did good, no matter what. So the more I But you run out of capacity and probably older 40s and 50s before I realized it was all about leverage in. It's funny that you say coach and Mentor. It was more in my later years. You know, there are many years. I have spent well over 100 Grand on coaching and mentoring, you know, in the hundreds of thousands. So most people, you know, it's funny if I speak in a room and I say, how many people in here? Are spent more than 100 Grand on coaching? Not too many hands go up. But, you know, it definitely changed the Dynamics, especially when it came to leverage because my one coach was that was his favorite question was, what's the one thing that was? He didn't say five things. That's the one thing that you're going to leverage that will catapult you in the next six to 12 months, in your business life or in your personal life too and it could even be in, you know, your sports team, your coaching, it could be the any topic almost But there is typically one thing that will really dramatically you know move the needle or 10x or 100x something as opposed to a lot of things. And we all tend to get you know, caught in all the minutiae shop and it was a great mentoring and coaching his Spirit experience from him. And that was a guy named Louis ship. Who wrote the book. He's wrote several books, but one wasn't business, brilliant. And he was from birthing a giants in New York, and Very sophisticated group, I was actually a very small fish in that hot.
So now the leverage specifically in your case was other people's money, is that what we're referring to that you were able to.
Use to cranking deal? Yeah I mean it, you know, at first you think that you know, capitals definitely something we can all utilize or leverage, but it can also be personnel and technology and education. And typically, what will happen is each quarter. Or each month or something. It could be a different thing. Depending on where your business is, you know, like you know how there's like I say I like to say there're three pillars every business right there. Yeah a bit older sources of product and then their scalability and one of them is always screaming the loudest. Usually, absolutely. So those answers can shift, you know, in my mind. Yeah, so excited. I am not saying you can't leverage a couple things but usually there's a needle mover, that's really Moved the needle you know? And that's yeah it's almost like the book. The one thing it's you know, great book is that kind of concept of? Yeah. There's probably one thing that's really going to be.
Dramatic, you know. Yeah. Like the 80/20 Pareto Principle, we're dancing on the.
20%. That's another level to they would do the 80/20 of the 80/20, the 4% rule, you know exactly. Okay. I really zero in. I think that type of concept and then the other one that was real big for me. He was focusing on what you do best and getting out of some of the other stuff and it took me a while because, you know, you know how like we like to all wear a lot of hats and think are important, and we try to do everything. And one of the things I did in recent years was, you know, how you take your, whether it's your outlook, Calendar, your Google calendar, whatever it doesn't really matter. What kind of took that and then I made like three columns and I had, you know what I really I love to do. I would do it almost for free gives me joy. You know I can create energy from it. You know I had that category and then I had a category of stuff. I can't stand on. Why am I doing it? And then I had actually the hardest categories, the middle which is stuff that you do. You don't mind doing it. You're okay at it right? But it really comes down to. Should you be doing it? You know, and there's a lot of time worth. Yeah. And then it's you know, you will hear people say time blocking and goal setting and all that, right? I don't know. I am kind of getting to the point where my goal is to not have any goals or the only thing I want to be in is the one with No Agenda, you know. So it's absolutely it's funny. It's funny how that shifts and what that's really saying it doesn't mean I don't have goals, it just means. Yes, I don't have that. Yeah absolute no makes the different thing right.
Makes total sense. I had a gay. Harold Webb was a previous guest, and he is a phenomenal story, but we had a call after the podcast, and he said a similar thing where, you know, I said, well, should we set another appointment for a call, and he said, you know, I don't like to put things on my calendar, these days. He said, just reach out, if you need something, you know, and there was a lot of freedom and, and guess, you know.
Just yeah, it's like the morning routine, right? Like I was when I was obviously president/ceo, the routines were very, you know. Strict regimen. It's just riding all that good stuff and in recent times not that I don't have routines. I do right. Like you know sleeps a real big thing for me these days another one is I have like almost like a no alarm clock policy even though I get up the same time every day which kind of sounds ridiculous. But I don't even like an alarm. I mean, I hated even to catch a plane own airport, and I am very guarded with time and phone like I haven't had a phone in my office. Person five years. Like, if you look around, there's no.
Can't really call me. So I just.
That's you can love it, okay.
I mean, it's like it's very and I do have a morning routine like, you know, same as everybody else, probably shouldn't, you know, exercise or reading and writing and, you know, we all have hobbies, and I am fortunate. I had two grown adults children, two sons, and I have four grandkids, and, you know, grandsons and granddaughters. Is there a lot of fun? Yeah, you know, and I am sure you need a hobby and themselves, right? All right.
Absolutely. But your sounds like the your morning routine like sounds like you do that because you recognize the value of that for your, for your life, and for others lives as well. It's not because you're forced to do it.
No, but I meditate, I will do yoga once a week, just stress. And, you know, I could exercise and all that and I do some intermittent, you know, I like that. Um, I do like, Off the, you know. Yeah. But I also do, you know, it is tough. Like, I am not, I am not yet the one meal a day guy. It's a noble goal, right? There's always another.
Level. So talk to us about, you know, because you mentioned some adversity already on the growing up. In the relationship side of things, talk to us about some of the other adversity, maybe Financial that you have That you faced either in businesses or purse on the personal side?
Sure. I mean most of the financial if you really look at true adversity, it was obviously those younger years because there was absent for it was more basic you know you got to take care of food and shelter and things like that later in life. Hi, the biggest thing was around the time I was 42, I had a painting company and I had that for Good, 10 years. And I was, I had hurt my back and I literally put me out of the business. I actually had a sell off contracts. I had to do all kinds of stuff, lay off, employees at the peak and I had 12 employees. And, you know, I couldn't load trucks. Any, my couldn't physically work. I wasn't allowed to lift anything over 25 pounds. You know, thank God. I had the ability to use my education in my brain is a background because At the time I had, I had around 20 properties. At one point, I had gotten up to like 40 of my own places and, you know if it wasn't for that, I would have been in a real predicament but you could I couldn't do the physical work. I used to do and it definitely, you know, I shipped it in real estate obviously but you know, life had to change and so it was obvious fortunate at the same time I was having problems with my back. Um, because I would get hurt and I would be out for days and the with the lesson there was the business revolved around me and then I realized, if I ever have a business again, it's not going to revolve around me and that's kind of when you CPR for example. Yeah, there's a lot of Team behind me, you know. They're right a lot of focus partner so Summer's here. There's, you know.
Ya know. And I mean, it's an also possible to scale if it's, if you're the yeah, only The key cog in the wheel but so what did you do tactically? At that point, then to when you, I guess, when you started your next business, how did you approach that to make sure you? You weren't the key.
Players. You, well, in the beginning, it, um, well, I was an agent and what I did was living off my properties of the section do that. And then I, but I started doing multiple streams of income at first. So I had a total b****. This. I used to run mortgages through my wife. Even I did property management and then I focused on investors. So if you were an investor in mind, you might buy five or ten houses, and then, you know, we would do multiple things for you. So I am gonna get paid multiple times, not just the commission to sell your property and then I would also be a leasing agent and then I would also, you know, so I had this like kind of Snowball Effect.
never a while till the crash and then that's when I entered. That's when we started PPR. And we were like, after the market crash 2. No 07-08. We were like, all right. What's, what side of the fence do we want to be on? It's going to be ugly for a while and it really was ugly for realtors for a while. Sure. So we were like, you know, my partner. John was a mortgage originator. He was actually an investor friendly lender, and I was an investor friendly agent and you know, there was just no I went from at Remax at the time I was probably doing 75 80 sales a year easy. Z I dropped by the seven somehow it plummeted, you know, so it was a good thing that I did go into distressed debt. Now from another Financial adversity, though was one of the parties that was initially, teaching us the collection side of the business, ripped us off. As soon as several million dollars and it took a long period of time to go to court. Actually we got it back but it was the loss use of the capital that was very painful and it almost put us out of.
Business opportunity cost of not having that Capital. Yeah not.
Having the capital was luckily we had the skills to continue to raise capital and Figure it out. Are, you know, other ways. But basically you know when someone does that to you again they literally try to put up photos out of business.
And it's almost like the bad Builder concept. You know, how a builder has 25 or 30 subcontractors and their models to pay no one and then maybe one or two contractors will sue. They will settle with one, and he do they lost the case to the one. They didn't pay the other.
25. So still profitable even though it's.
Very profitable, To them. It's like a business thing even though it's very unethical.
Right? Right. I don't know how, I don't know how people sleep at night. Well, they're out. So tell me you don't have to go into specifics, of course, but talk a little bit more about that as far as what was the relationship with this person again and mainly for the list, which is they.
Could avoid telling us assets, and they were helping us collect on the assets, things like that. And we had put up some money to obtain assets. Then never got the assets, but they ration money is, it's like and then you heard a song and dance and all that stuff for a long period of time and then it was like sue me and then suits take ears and then, you know, eventually we got it. And yes, we got a little bit of interest, but the little bit of Interest did not? Yes, I do. What an impact. Yeah, it was not only was pretty devastating.
Actually, sure, the opportunity cost of the money, but also your time and energy. That's a.
Lot of energy folks in the legal, The Chase. Seeing that, you know, dealing with investors, the whole nine yards.
Mean do you have any Lessons Learned there that the listener can take away as far as you?
Know? I mean? Yes. And no. I mean, you're always well, yeah, don't wait it, right? It's just like if you're evicting a tenant or, you know, homeowners not paying, you know, any of those the longer you, wait, you're just making it worse. And so there's always, you know, speed means a lot move very quickly here at don't wait, there's no point in waiting. I guess the, you know, I don't know that you can be calm, say a millionaire without losing some money somewhere, right? I have had other cases where I lost you know a quarter million or a half million you know, on a personal side and investing or something. But I don't think that I don't know what the odds are of someone become say a billionaire who never lost a million dollars or something. I disher find it probably unlikely. You know, that could even happen because I am not saying you want to go out and try to lose money. I don't mean it that way, but I think that's part of the learning piece of it. It's I don't look at it as failure. I think, I was just listening to Sara Blakely, the saying, something like that, which is a kid that You know, her father would say, so what do we fail at this week? And he'd hire, you know, that kind of thing. And it's because it's a learning experience. It's really not a failure, right? So here, it's back to kind of what we were talking about with University piece, where it's like, you know, how do we respond to what happened? I know my, I see my son one time. Sometimes he gets bug that he's like aren't you worried about this in the news? Or aren't you worried about that in the news? And I am like right now? No. Because it's how I respond to what, you know, let me see what happens and then I will make my move. You know it's ya mean to sound that crazy but it's kind of like that. It's a I can't worry about what might happen. Now I am not saying I don't take any precautions that would be foolish to say that but I kind of see what shakes out and then I adjust according to I think.
It's that's a very valuable piece of wisdom, honestly, you know, and that's been a Common Thread. A lot of the guests we have had on the show as far as you know, not focusing on the big picture. Meaning, the things I can't control as far as maybe you take that information in as far as you might use it in your analysis but not over emphasizing that with regard to your stress levels. And what if this, what if that, what if that would, if this and shifting from what if to even is has been a key piece? But I know for me, you know, years ago, Oh, I would make a switch. I turned off the news. You know. The key is that what news? It's like and I stopped. Stop worrying about all that stuff. And I shifted to, okay, my father was also an agent. He still, is that technically my brother was a loan officer. You know, I had Title Insurance experience. What are the strengths or what are the team members around me? That can help, you know, move this thing forward, as opposed to, oh my gosh, like we're, you know, I don't know, the next War, whatever.
I mean, they're real problems, but I can't fix it. So, it.
Doesn't mean you don't care, right? I don't want to get caught up in it and I agree with you. I am not a big news person. It doesn't mean I don't, you know, here's what's funny. You hear about the stuff anyway. Writes that it had a right? Yeah. That's gonna find its way to you, anyhow. It might be a day later or something.
No. But you're right about the point of, you know, you can't, you probably shouldn't get into business if you're not willing To lose a, you know, loses money business or investing because you're going to take your, take your licks if you do enough deals, right?
Yeah, I mean I don't know, the kind of the way I mean, think about it, we all. I am not saying I want to be, you know, not care about the investors or money or anything, but I would also don't want to live a life of regret either, and it doesn't even do things, foolish lie. But I think you have to, I mean, what's the worst that can happen, you know? I don't know that. Will be where I was when I was eight. Well, I doubt it, you know, and the other thing is, even if you made your first million or whatever, 10 million 100 million, you didn't, you're not gonna forget that. As long as you have your mental capacities, right? You can you lose everything tomorrow? You're going to know how to go back and do it again. Yeah, it's kind of it's like I don't even worry about that. Yeah, like I don't worry about money or anything.
Like yeah, well that it really is the even if this happens, I can still point. To my.
Strengths. Reinvent yourself and go back. Yeah, whatever.
So then before I get to some, some questions I have here so you mentioned being a real estate agent for a while. You mentioned the painting business, you meant mentioned Contracting and then you mentioned the kind of the distressed debt space obviously? That's what pprs is known for and then you have gotten into more kind of commercial real estate more recently and that type thing have we covered Have we checked all the boxes as far as the business is you have .
Started? Yeah, I mean the only, the only weird thing about PBR really was it was an accidental business. It wasn't like I had, it wasn't like there was a business robust business plan. It wasn't like I bought a franchise.
Well, no, that's actually like, so talk about that because, you know, I think that does hold a lot of entrepreneurs backed because they think they need this 10-year 20-year vision, and they don't make take the next step.
Well, we actually have a 10-year Vision now, Okay. Well you do now but I do know this to make people feel a little better. The very beginning, you know, it was, you know, I remember meeting with my partner John, you know, you're at lunch in the area, you know, it was almost like the back of a napkin type idea. Like, you know, I raised money for commercial real estate before. PPR is like hey, buddy. Raise money. I will work the notes. And we actually had a short sale company and the sign on the front of the building was This shirt sale company, and the short sale company went out of business and notes were, like, in the back office, and okay, one room and, and that business kind of took off. And, you know, it started out with our own money at first and, you know, I was in a really an investor in the beginning. It was hey, it was pretty cool to have cash flow without tenants and things like that. And it's passive, somewhat passive. So that part was intriguing and compelling and all and then The fact that you could buy something at a discount with a high-yield with collateral was kind of appealing. Right? So, you know, that's kind of what Drew is.
In. Yeah. Yeah. But so you kind of stumbled into it and then it sounds like probably the market conditions helped.
Yeah. And, and then, you know, another thing that was at verse in the beginning, we started an upmarket and it was very scary because the market really crashed and all the equity fell out of your portfolio. So, all of a sudden, you know, I forget how many million assets we had at the time but also on the equity went away. So you're like, oh my gosh, if you had a bank mentality you'd be like we're done. We're toast. Yeah. And what we found was, that's not what happened because Equity didn't indicate outcome, and we weren't in a fire sale situation. So we're working through the assets. Sure. And what we learned was as we bought new assets and better pricing, You know, it was funny with the equity assets at the time we were getting out of, I don't know, let us say it was nine out of ten. When we were buying assets with less actually or negative equity, we were getting out of called seven out of ten, right? But we were paying a third for the assets, but we work. Hang right, so right. That data that actually thing that, you know, when the sky was falling, or we thought this guy was falling was a blessing in disguise because we grab dated that enabled us to go out and buy. With no one else wanted to buy, right? It was kind of like a reminded me. When we would buy bankruptcy assets, the bank looks at them all, is they're all bad, and they put them in a pocket. We know statistically, a third of them are good. It's just which third you know who's a very statistical business. When we started, we were in junior names when we started. But, you know, it's kind of interesting how that evolved, but that traumatic event of the market crashing Equity falling. Oh my gosh, the world's coming to an end, right? Guys. The portfolio's worthless. Yeah, it's worthless if you're forced to sell it, but we were in fact you tried. There's a lesson in that like everybody tends to go to the worst-case scenario all the time but that's not always with dictates outcome.
Right? So sure well and I know being honest you're seeing on.
This Market with Mark to Market on Assets. Now The Mark to Market valuations in the tank, doesn't really mean anything unless you're selling it today. Yeah. A fire sale price, right?
Yeah. People say that. The stock market all. I have lost all this money. It's like well no you actually have it's just that the number on the piece of paper says you have so but yeah that makes a lot of sense. I mean.
I have almost had you want to be in that situation. All right? But.
You're absolutely right. I mean I am in the npl space you know as well and if you can buy it at a much better price point, you have a lot more options and you can even, you know, it just gives you a lot more control and a lot. More room for profit and a little bit more room for error if you will, but.
Well pricing can adjust. And you can adjust your tactics to write and you know, you're not Market where equities up go, deed-in-lieu, could be popular in a down Market when there's no equity. Deal is a bad idea. I mean, so it's yeah, absolutely. If you don't adjust then yeah, you know, it's almost like it's a shame on you but it's kind of like, yeah, you know.
Just yeah so when you look back we did. As far as your business approach your approach to all these businesses, at what point did you say, Okay, I want the, you know, these are all going to be kind of spokes on a wheel. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but did you when you were starting out as an agent? I am assuming you didn't know you'd have all these different types of related businesses or have started them at some point. So it was there a point where you said, okay kind of residential and even commercial real estate is my focus, and I am going to start a title. And I will or did it kind of just happen as you went?
Along? Well, at first, it was like I think I saw Robert Allen speaking. It was.
Okay. So yeah. Well models changing.
Cover something up in time. Yep. I was like yeah, I can do that. I am gonna have, but what you could do realize it's not focused then, you know, and your Co. Now, you're doing a bunch of things. How well are you doing them? And you can only see them as good as you can handle it or something. And then the wheel starts to fall off. So it's, I don't know that I would do that again. I am probably better off and you see that today with a lot of real estate teams. You will see the team's real estate. People who probably maybe have done better than me, even because they might get someone that's an expert in listing versus an expert in selling or an expert in Property Management. Sometimes. I think it pays to drill down and really Get something home and whatever that expertise is. I am not saying I love descriptive or anything, I am more like, I don't know. I think you might be better off doing what you do best and if bring in everyone else, I mean, it's kind of what I have done in this situation with us bringing in a new CEO. It's a someone that came from a much larger 1.3 trillion under management. Yeah. Over the last twenty-nine years who really scaled a company from around 100 and 50-ish employees to like, 4,000, you know? Well, not saying we want that many people but you get the idea. Am I the best person to wear all these hats and continue? You know, I have kind of taken it this far but in some ways we're like a 15-year fifteen-year-old start up. When you come into this scale. Like if you really want to scale this thing, maybe it's better. If I get out of the way and just do what I do best, which is usually more on the capital side than it is trying to be all these other things.
Sure. Yeah, and I do sounds like over the last few years, even before the very recent changes, sounds like you PR had already shifted toward focusing more on raising Capital as opposed to managing assets. Is that true.
Very safe assessment? I mean, for many years, we were asset managers, we still are in some cases in some areas, but the percentage is shrinking dramatically in a lot of Outsource, but the good news is its different. When you're Outsourcing it, and you have done it versus, I also sort of, you know, outsourced and I have no idea what I am doing. Yeah. Like a lot of people don't know, like, even in multifamily a lot of people don't know that, I raise Capital previously for commercial real estate. And they also don't know that I was a contractor in commercial real estate. Right? Right now, I used to work in multifamily four to six hundred unit, people were my customers, I used to do the turnovers so it's a little different when you go to look at assets and feasibility of projects and value. And things like that new development. I was a guy to read blueprints did estimate and, you know, it's all that stuff that I didn't realize come in handy later. Ironic, how that works out, sometimes that, yeah, even my job in fast food, you know, I was a fast-food manager, you know, when I was 18, you don't realize you might go, you know if I said that to my grandson who 17 TV, oh God, I don't want to work there, but he doesn't realize you still learn systems processes checklist, all these things, you know, how to open the store, how to close the books, how to do inventory, how to do this? Even though you're at a fast food place, right? So, right, there's a lot of lessons that you're picking up at these various jobs, you know whether you're self-employed contractor or whatever, that is that come along the way that become valuable later even though they may not appear to be related, you know.
Yeah. They're still transferable skills and transfer absolutely no, that's great. So yeah, that's its Probably pretty tough for these operators to, and syndicators and different people partnership Partners. You're working with for them to pull the wool over your eyes at this point. Since you have got some got a lot of experience in a lot of different areas so.
That may still team sport In fairness, not trying to act like a now at or anything. But yeah, there're areas that, you know, maybe I am not the greatest underwriter or whatever. There's probably peopled, you know, better at it me or are various parts of the business Right. I am not an engineer, right? I am not going to pretend to be one, right? So, right, there's people on people, you know, and teams that are very helpful to be on the legal side could be, you know. So the thing about commercial is, it's definitely a team sport. There's plenty of room for multiple players on the team, you know.
It makes sense. Now, I mean, you know, we own some rentals and I always recommend people investors manage their own properties first, if it's every situation is different, of course, but If my property manager is really dropping the ball, I am going to know it.
You gotta jump in any way, right? So it's yeah. So.
but I am going to fire off a few questions here and then we will we will wrap it up. So, what's one thing that people misunderstand about you? Dave.
Misunderstand about me? That's a going. She's, I have never been asked that one misunderstand about me. Oh, maybe sometimes I am being sarcastic maybe.
Okay, don't know it. They don't pick up. Yeah, I get that one too because you know, it can be a little dry with my delivery. So it's like hey I am going to be.
Yeah I can I couldn't get my bad jokes on.
Yeah so that's good. What's one of your biggest regrets failures? I know you don't want to use that term necessarily but you know something that you'd like to do over.
With. It would probably utilize that leverage ideas sooner and younger than I did. You know, I was and then trying to be good at a lot of things, you know. Sure, never going to be that good at playing the guitar or speaking, French or probably even golf, you know, like so why do I put too much energy or effort in some of these places or something? You know, when I could do something else or sure you get the idea. Yeah. Or do I just focus on what I am really good at and just go knock it out? The park. You know. There's something to be said for some of that. No, I don't mean don't ever try to improve yourself? I don't mean that but sure I think there's a there's some truth.
To that, you know. Yeah. And that goes hand-in-hand with the leverage because the more we.
Places time, I think try to do mediocre crap.
Right? Yeah. Makes sense. If you could have coffee or drink with any historical figure, who would you choose? They could still be alive today. If you choose, that's a.
Good one. Um, Jesus maybe.
I don't know if you drank coffee. Yeah maybe wine he whined.
yeah I mean there's so many historical people that's a good question so any. Yeah.
I mean it's hard to beat the Jesus answer if you were given ten million dollars tomorrow not saying you don't already have 10 million dollars but you were somebody wrote 10 or 10 million dollar check just text you 10. Then an extra 10. What would you do.
With it? Yeah, it's funny you say that because I am at a point in my life where it's like, you know, I it's funny one of the books I just read was the second mountain and, you know, it's pretty. I am really, I am literally really good. Look, man, it's great and I read that this year, every, I read quite a bit, but a lot of it's been around. You know what you're next? What's, you know? I don't like the word retirement, but it's really, you know, what do you want to do next? What's more impactful? Maybe, how can I do bigger things? And If you gave me 10 million dollars, it would not materially impact my life right now. So and I don't mean that in a bad way or it's not well I was going.
To, but I am not going to now, so I am kidding. I was gonna give you 10 million.
so I would probably be looking at, you know, what could I, what could I do? Pretty good with this. That would be interesting as opposed to, some of the other folks. I mean, I am sure everybody sees a lot of nonsense on different media channels. I love jumping in front of, you know, private this and gems and this and that. Yeah, and that's just not me. I know some people that's their thing, that's great, but I just because I always feel like maybe it's because of where I came from that. I just feel like now I can help a lot of people with someone, you know, so it's just it's more rewarding for me to give than to get in other cases.
I love it. Yeah, real quick, real quick, anecdote on. And the second Mountain book, somebody was messaging me a few weeks ago, and she said, I could she always asked for book recommendations at the end of the year, and we put out a list of from our all of our podcasts. Guess we said these are the book recommendations, and so she's messaging me, and she says this book is amazing. I have got to give you so much. Credit, was you who recommended this? And I said in fashion. I haven't read that one. That was actually as Mark, pedowitz, it's hard to read them all, is it? Yeah. So now I am Reading it because I feel obligated but it's really good and now I know you have a book. You have already written. What's the name of that book? Dave? Real estate note investing. Okay, got it. If you had to write another book this year, what would that be?
About? You know, it's interesting. Obviously, I raise a lot of capital so that could be an interesting book. A lot of people want you to write a book on how to work with notes, which is a, you know, that's more of an Ops thing or of. And I am not really the opposite person either. But yeah, you could do that. And what other books could you give? That's a good question. Probably scaling a business or something, you know. Sure. For right now I am like Big into the board and the formation of really elevating the company and professional lighting business and doing a gap analysis, on what Board of advisors or board of directors. In my case, can really Elevate the company, and really take us to another level. And I think that, you know, that's something I look back on it that I should have done sooner, especially with, even if I couldn't afford board of directors, Board of advisers sooner, and what was I thinking waiting? And, you know, it's crazy that we.
Wait So for somebody, who's got a company, that's a lot smaller than yours. Yeah. How would they is, it? EOS or what would you recommend as far?
As well? Yeah, it's a good place to start. I mean any of those types of outfits where, you know, there's a, you know, a dozen CEOs or whatever. They can be your board of directors to you can actually get one, but I just think they just don't stop their day to think about, you know, the advisers they could bring in. And even if you can Yeah, you can always do a combination of, you know, modest compensation versus, you know, sliver of equity or something. Really. There are boards of advisors, till there's Equity involved in their zactly, regardless of what you call them, well answers Equity involved, and they're typically a board of directors. And then they, you know, they're really, they had resources and network that you just don't have in areas that you don't have and you can really, you know, catapult your business with some real strategic advice with someone that has a vested interest. First in helping you to do that. So it's like anything. Yeah I strongly recommend that the folks that they probably, I mean, I was guilty of it. I waited and dilly-dally and you know, didn't do it and look back and go. What were you thinking? You know?
Well, it's back to that. It's the leverage piece you were already talking.
About. I don't know what it is. We just don't realize that. How much that can benefit us, you know? Because it really only takes a couple relationships or a couple of resources that could. Dramatically uptick the business, you know, a lot of I see a lot of businesses, they get to us a certain stage, and then they get stuck, you know, it's like something's going to get them on stop you know and a lot of times it is these types of advisers, you know.
What does take discipline mental discipline to stop? Because you there's always a fire to put out like you alluded to earlier, it's just stop and create that space to work on the businesses easier said than done. But what's one? I guess, one thing about your looking back at your career, one thing that you didn't expect kind of big surprise in your industry if you will.
Oh well, Dodd-Frank was very nice.
You know, when we first started in the distressed that space, it was a little bit of the Wild West. So you know, out of Freedom Sharm and then that regulatory environment really got pretty stifling, what I didn't expect, it's a good question. Well, we also pivoted, right? So, I didn't expect covid. That was something I didn't expect us to. Yeah, so things like those types of small little Black Swan a like that, you know, but you know the good news is that, you know if you have your act together and you know, you can get through certain things. You know. It's just a testament to the team or the company that kind of thing. The one thing I did learn there is that You are in as much as the issue as the government. Yeah. They didn't handle the business very well, right? See that with well, let us just take Courthouse recording, right? I mean half, the counties aren't even online, right? So that's a deciduous, besides, I have been a disgrace, that's a structural problem. It's my still in effect like where they're still ya think I am you know in Pennsylvania there's something like 67 counties or something there's like 12 online, you know, it's like it's crazy. Bailey like you realize the internet's here. You know.
Well, that in the whole execution of like the PPM program. But that's the whole.
That's a whole nother story, right? Yeah. But what my point was, it wasn't so much that we couldn't get through. The sure. It's just, you didn't have any support from the systems that he had to rely on just, by the nature of the business. So it was almost like, their lack of Readiness, almost put additional parties. I am sure they did. I am sure they put other companies out of business.
Sure, to Sofia more quick questions here. Yeah, sure. Sure. How has your, how has Financial abundance made your life better?
Probably peace of mind. You know, I never really worry about money and I don't know if it's a case of because I hadn't come from a lot, you know, like it's, so I never really worry about it. And I always, you know, obviously I believe in a higher power, higher power and things like that, but I do have that kind of mentality where, you know, I will just figure it out. I know that things will be okay, you know, kind of thing. So I don't Um, you know, it's like Tony Robbins, probably said it best we don't lack resources, we lack resource fulness. How long I like that? I like that. I like that line. Like, you know, it's like the Acres of diamonds. They're all right. In front of us, you know, Mom and I believe that with anything as simple as nature. Like I like to read, you know, like going to be on a beach or in the mountains on a deck or you know, like I like to be near nature. I feel close to God or the universe, whatever that is for folks. And, you know, one of the things is, there's no bad nature through her whatever. Normally, unless it's a tornado or something, should I mean, there're beautiful places. You know, a lot of times you will see people say, well, this place is more beautiful than this place. Like, yeah, maybe today it is. But you know, there's plenty of Beauty in the world. There's plenty of you know, we don't necessarily have to go 10,000 miles to find something beautiful. It might be right in front of our backyard or something, you know, so it's That's my view on that. I mean it disappears. But that's not weird. It's great. He's all around this, right? So.
Absolutely just two more questions here. How, how do you like to serve others?
Yeah, that's a good question for a long time. My oldest son was in recovery and me and him had owned a drug and alcohol Recovery Center for 11 years. And nowadays, he still owns one, but it mainly because I was going off to do other things and things like that. So that was very rewarding, and then we do a lot of charitable stuff. Mostly on the homelessness side, I have done a lot with project home, which is in Philadelphia. It's been, you know, housing-related maybe just because of the nature of all the businesses I had were housing unit. And you know, I always like, you know, I always I really believe that the homeless problem we have is not really been addressed very well. Yeah and I you know, I look in other countries. You know, that don't really have it. The way we do, like whether I am in the Netherlands or somewhere else, I am like, why are we so messed up here? Um, so I do look to that and there's a lot of reasons obviously, but he I just think there can be more work done. And, you know, there's some smart people that could put their heads together and help try to solve some of it anyway.
Sure. It's those are some very important causes and I like to highlight that since I do believe entrepreneurship is a Force for good. Good, and we can. You have shown you can create wealth in your own, your own life and, and make a very positive impact for others. So, that's really good. Last question, where, where can our listeners find you online? It sounds like if they can't call you, yeah, cause.
I don't mean it that way. That sounds good. Now, you can reach me at, PPR Capital Management.com, but the management is NG and t.com for Regional BiggerPockets. We have a we also have a distress mortgages group on LinkedIn. People ask questions periodically especially on BiggerPockets, he answered a lot of stuff for basically anything. And we try to answer them, you know, almost daily, we answer stuff. So yeah, feel free to reach out, always there to help other investors. I do believe that and I do like what you said earlier. If you can think of ways to be more impactful in your investing, by all means, right? It's easy. To, it's pretty easy. If you think about it to go out, and we have a lot of things, we're fortunate, we're in a great place, a great country, things like that. We have a lot of resources that a lot of other folks in other places don't have and it's just to be mindful that, you know, we can, you know, we don't always have to do this take-take-take mentality. We can there's plenty that we can do to give back and have an impact. I really encourage people. About doing more, impactful investing than just investing.
It. I love it and it's really gets to the abundance mindset and in abundance approach that you clearly have. And that you know, that we're trying to highlight on the show. So this has been fantastic Dave, I really appreciate your time. So thanks. Thanks a lot for joining us.
No, my pleasure. Thank you, Gene. Take.
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