Welcome back, passive investor. We have got another episode of the passive income adventures with Jamie Bateman Jamie, is a fund manager with Labrador lending, and he is the host of a podcast that helps investors talk about some of the challenges that they have overcome and how they're working on things in the future and it was the Earth's podcast that I ever cried on. So thanks so much for that. Jamie. Yeah, you're so welcome. I am hoping you don't return the favor but I did enjoy your story and thank you for coming on my show as Happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah I appreciate you coming on. I think that this is going to be a great conversation based on our first time that we met and had a chat. We got really deep really fast and that's the way that I like to do things. So let us just kick it right off with having you tell us your introduction like your origin story you can make it as Batman or Superman origin story as you like and tell us. You got started down this alternative path towards passive income and Entrepreneurship investor and where that Turning Point. Point really was for you. I have to hear more about that. Sure. Yeah, I guess growing up. I had a decent at Sports and so kind of occupied my time outside of school. And I am one of seven. So we had a big, big family, and we are always lots of energy and life and that kind of thing. So, like most kids and teenagers, I didn't give my future too much thought, but then once I got out of college and my Collegiate athletic, career abruptly ended, and I was like, okay, now what and of I thought some about what to do but really didn't know what I was going to do two quite honestly and I fell into opportunity to work for a title company and then a mortgage company as well. Really, just to have a paycheck quite honestly but I ended up learning so much about what is title insurance. What's what is it? How does a closing work? What the fees on a settlement statement? Even though my father had been a real estate agent for many, many years, I didn't really understand that stuff like, most of us were not. Not taught that in school, right? I did learn a lot of practical information, right after college through that and then but still wasn't fulfilled. And so wanted to do something, I wanted to do something with a little more purpose or at least what I viewed as having more purpose at that time. And, so I joined the military was deployed to Iraq and then I ended up transitioning from the, from military service into a civilian job with the Department of Defense. And so it wasn't necessarily the As I would predict, but it was a nice stable paycheck, with good benefits and ended up working there for 14 years and what that allowed me to do because frankly it is one of the most secure jobs out there. I don't think any, there's always risked. Nothing is 100% secure. But I did feel that this position was certainly pretty stable so it could go out and kind of decide take some other chances and have a little less stability, a little less predictability as I know you. Can you relate to being an entrepreneur and an investor? And so that gets to the 2015, which is when I made the mindset shift that we can talk about. But that's a little bit about my background. I have a history and team sports leadership and military service, but always wanted to be a part of something bigger than myself and but sounds, it sounds like I am tooting my own horn. But I just I think that's where purpose lies is serving others and trying to be a part of a bigger purpose. And Team Vision goal, whatever you want to call it. So that's a little bit about my background. I would love to, I can certainly dive in more on the mindset shift that I did make awhile back as well. You know, definitely love to hear about that. Turning point that you hit because there are title officers escrow officers, real estate agents commercial brokers, Bankers lenders, all over this country who are watching, investors come in every day and close properties over and over again and wondering, like how do I get into this? How do I get into this? I am sitting on the wrong side of the table, but they're not able to make that shift more than more often than not the Frontline real estate professionals do not become investors. So tell me about what that looked like for you sit on the wrong side of the table and thinking how can I get over into that position where I am an investor, because lots of people think it but very few actually do it. Yeah, I did have period of time between the title industry and mortgage industry from that point until I actually made the actual jump. But yeah, I don't know, it was a process, but I think what I would ended up doing was 2014 2015, time frame in that General time frame. I just, I was just sick and tired of the commute and the W2 and like a lot of your listener listeners can relate to. I am sure just The Daily Grind, right? You go to work and it's a groundhog day, it's fine and it was stable but I just what's, what is the point is? It gets really old. What I started doing was listening to podcasts and I know you were on the BiggerPockets podcast a while back and that was one key podcast for me as I was in. I said, if I am going to spend two to three hours per day at least in the car, I am going to make the most of it. How do I get out? It really was at that point, how do I get away from the monotony of this soul-sucking job? And I had plenty of, I love my co-workers and all that. It's not like it was anything personal but after quite some time, you start to run the numbers and you start to look forward. And you say, this isn't this just isn't Cut it. So what I started doing was looking around intentionally looking around and saying, what can I control? And what are the, what do I have going for me? In other words, stop watching the news, I used to come home from work and turn on the news and it's I have no control over who gets elected president, or what? How we handled this foreign policy or something. So really did make it a major switch mentally about in about 2015 and I said, okay my father's a real estate agent. My brother is a loan officer. I have title experience. My wife worked at a title separate title company. So you start looking at the things you have going for you in the things because everyone has advantages. And, so I started looking at those and not paying attention to the things that I couldn't control anyway. And so in 2015, I actually went part-time and this was another advantage to my W2 or an advantage to it. Is that I was able to go part-time and keep my benefits, not everyone has that opportunity necessarily, but I was able to work for the next seven years anywhere from 16 to 32 hours per week and I still had health insurance for our family and it was still able to save up in for retirement and that kind of thing obviously was getting paid less. But, so I joke to you, before we hit record, I didn't really rip off the Band-Aid fully. I took my time and an approaching the Nor ship and the investor life. But then in March of 2022, just about 10 months ago, I did actually quit my job. Which was a whole was. Yeah, was interested in and of itself party right now. Listen, let us just think about the momentous — I don't even know if that's a real Warrior of what you just said there. I will say it again. What did you do? Do in March of 2022? I quit my W2. I said I have had enough. It was funny. I haven't told this part of the story, if you don't mind I felt like I was in awe. For space. If anyone has seen that movie where So what had happened was I ruptured. My achilles I was out for a couple months, and I knew I was going to leave at some point but and certainly, I talk this over with my wife and wasn't a unilateral decision but I just my heart wasn't in it anymore, but come back into work. And I went to my desk and there's someone else at my desk, and he did and I said, hey just this was my desk. Whew. Months ago. But you may not know who I am, and he's the, I don't know, and just keeps working. So I have to wander around the office. This is really a blow to the ego. If I am honest, wander around the office looking for my new desk. And I find I look over and I see a box with my name on it, with I guess, my stuff inside the box. So my first thought was I should just take this box and literally never come back. I did quit that day. I did come back. It works another month or two, but if I put in, I told management I was I couldn't do it anymore so it was very clear for me. There was no doubt and no regret. I think the I got too much of a taste of freedom and I couldn't I just couldn't I wasn't doing any wasn't going to be of service to them and it I couldn't do it. So yeah, ripped off the Band-Aid finally and are the other half of the Band-Aid maybe and here we are. So I have got probably busier now than I was then but running I am different businesses and but I do work for myself and I love it. So yeah, you know this that your story. It reminds me of something. I overheard my mom say to one of my elementary school teachers during some parent-teacher conference, and I was listening in when I probably shouldn't have been a, my mom was frustrated because she said every summer when she comes home, she's able to do what she wants. And she learns and she gets stuff done. And then the school year starts and it's like trying to stuff a square peg into a round hole and Don't think that she needs that kind of experience. She can do what she needs to do during the summer, she's proven it. I don't understand why it has to be like this and it does a little bit. I am putting some words in her mouth, but that really woke me up to the fact like the when you have a summer vacation. But just basically what you had even though you had a ruptured Achilles and I know from our previous conversation. That was it wasn't fun but yeah I guess devastating recovery but at the same time when you go back to work and you have been away for a while and realized yeah I know it's like summer vacation is over. And I remember being bored a lot during summer vacation, I remember being excited to see who made new teacher was and who what other kids were in the class with me. But at the same time after that newness of a, the first week of school and your new outfits are all worn more off and your crayons all need sharpened, I was just over it. I was done and that was just like a prison in a torture for the rest of the school year and then summer vacation will come around again and that's probably one reason I home school my kids. But that same kind of experience where you get that taste of what life can be like and suddenly you can't force yourself. Back into the square peg into the round hole anymore. And so what that transition looked like walk me through that. Because most people, the reason they don't quit their jobs because people talk about this, a lot, if I didn't have to work for my money and I just went to work because I wanted to how much differently would I perform at work? And the answer that I have gotten over and over again. When people get to that point is, they quit people don't stay working at their job if they don't have to be there you can find as much fulfillment and love in it. And a few People do. But most of us, the goal is to leave and work on our own projects and the reason we don't leave is that we can't afford to. So when you got to that point where you're like I can't afford to do this. What is that? Like? Because I know stepping away, it's a big loss of income and there's a period of time when you have to fill in that Gap. So how are you able to get to that point mentally and financially? Yeah, I mean financially for one thing I do think it's a little bit disingenuous when people say I got my passive income or my business income up to match my W2 so therefore I could quit my job and it's right? But then you had both and you just lost your W-2. So there's still a drop it in. I don't care. I don't care who you are like there's still a drop in income so you're never just yeah there was certainly a blip there were look there's a risk here, and we had saved up enough my wife and I had developed a single family rental portfolio which we have continued to add to. And so we did have a good amount of rental income. Coming in, on top of that, my kids are both in middle school now and well ones in high school ones. In middle school and my wife was looking to potentially get back into the workforce. So that certainly helped certainly from the our health insurance is through her work. Now, I guess mindset wise financially, we were able to just make it work. It wasn't ideal but I don't know if it's ever if you wait for all the stars to align. I just don't think it's ever going to be that way. So there Is, but again thing is I saw it as so. This is switching over to the mental side of it. I could always go get a job again. And that might sound cocky or something. But I think most of us could go back and get a job. I had, in fact, I had a security clearance that I had, I guess I have two years when I can reinstate that fairly easily. So I still could go back and get that same job, most likely I just don't see it as a huge risk as far as if you take a step back, Thing I think. And I have talked about this a little bit myself. But one thing to ask yourself is instead of saying, what if this, what if that would, if this say, even if I start this business and it doesn't work, I still have options. It's going to be okay, I can still do X Y and Z, so I don't pretend to have the entire future laid out. I don't know exactly what's going to happen. But another thing I like to mention is that I prefer to look at things as I would rather I had a roommate in college, who would say this? He was a powerlifter, if people would say, man, it's really bad for your knees to squat that much weight. And he would always say, I would rather wear out than rust out. If you're rusting out, it means you're just sitting there doing nothing. You're gonna in the end, be essentially, we're all going to die, right? So you may as well, take some chances, may as well live a little bit and not die with regret. So yeah, mentally I was just done and I have never been someone. And I don't know if entrepreneurship is for everyone, but I have never been someone who really needed a lot of I put enough structure on myself, and I was always disciplined with exercising, working out preparing for athletics or whatever it is, I never needed that person looking over my shoulder to keep me on track. So I certainly need guidance, and I need people to look up to, and I don't know everything for sure, but I just was self-motivated, I guess in that sense. So I think the leap to entrepreneurship mentally was a big relief actually for me because I just now I can focus on doing whatever I want, which again, I am probably working harder than I was last year. But yeah, that's a little bit of a peek into the kind of financial situation and the mental situation as well, you have the double grit of having been a high-level athlete. Most of us don't play sports in college. I didn't play, I barely played Sports in high school. I had to join the sport where nobody got cut from the team that was pathetic. I was, I love sports, but that doesn't mean I am good at it and then you join the military, which even just basic training, even if you're going into a desk job after that doesn't matter. There's something about the military that Demands, a certain level of gritty mindset. And so you have got the advantage of having both of those. And the work, the hard work that those disciplines require is a byproduct of how important that thing is to you. And so now that you're working Order as an entrepreneur hard work just comes. We don't just work for the sake of working. We could go out and dig ditches and that would be hard work, right? But how do we decide what we're going to do? It's something that we're excited about something we believe is either giving back to the community, giving back to the family. Doing some good in the world, freeing up your mental energy, time to focus on stuff. That's really going to be the highest value. And so tell us what your life basically looks like. Now where you can take that background of that mortgage industry, that athletic mindset that Military experience and tell us about what your business looks like today. Sure. Yeah. I, you do need to put in place certain boundaries just or else you will go a little too far potentially but yeah today I run a small team Labrador lending. We have I have four people now part-time and in the states that work for me and then I have two virtual assistants that do a wonderful job from the Philippines. And that's my main business that I spend most of my time in. And I love running a small team. I love trying to Get a mutually beneficial situation. I love seeing the growth in the people on my team. And so that team aspect has always been there for me as far as we already covered with lettuce and the military, so that transition hasn't been that hard day to day. I am trying to make sure I don't go overboard frankly with working too much on weekends and that kind of thing. And this year, I am actually putting some things in place just to focus more on my health and my family. And at, in general, That's what I spend most of my time doing. We have two different mortgage note funds. One, we're raising capital for still, we can talk more about that later but that's all under the umbrella of Labrador lending, and we have got I am in meetings a good bit but my main focus is trying to raise Capital serve others, as good as possible. Serve our investors serve my team, help them grow and a rising tide lifts All Ships. That's I do and I do believe that small business, truly is a force for Or good. And are we perfect? No, not even close. There's always issues or challenges and I enjoy, just that problem solving part of it and I would like to think that our business adds a decent amount of value to the world. So yeah, I feel like I have a little more impact right now than I went sitting at my desk at Fort Meade. Now we have a couple of mortgage notes and as far as passive income goes, it's tough to. It's tough to beat that. I really Almost Never To the mortgagee a mortgage area, let me know. Yeah, yeah. Listen my house, right? Manage it through an escrow company and its super hands off. And, so I like to give on the show, not only the mindset shifts and the motivation to basically make a choice, that is right for you, no matter if it's on the beaten path or off the beaten path, but I also like to give some technical nuts and bolts the nitty-gritty, how do we actually get this done? Because it's not, I do know some new mortgage note Traders and investors. And even though I have a couple, I don't really know very much about the industry from a training standpoint. So can you give us an introduction, like how you would teach a sixth grader about it to the world of mortgage notes and funds? Yeah, so the way I try to dumb it down. You keep it simple is I compare because we invest in both non-performing notes and Performing notes, so I am sounds like you're two notes. Are your borrowers are making payments its base. We seller financing. I have they moved in, they rent to own and now they don't, but they're paying right? I mean, they're yeah. They're performing this. Yeah, I may need to totally one of those notes when we go, okay, we can talk about that. So, that non-profit. So we buy both in the non-performing side that just means the borrower is behind. They could be making payments, but they generally speak, they're 90 days behind or further, and so we buy those at a discount and those I like to compare to a Fix and Flip property. Right? So it's a distressed asset meaning, you can buy it at a discount, and we're buying the note, becoming the bank if you will become the lender, as you are essentially on your to seller finance deals, will buy the non-performing asset at maybe 50, 50 or 60 percent of the principal balance. So let us just for rough numbers, the principal balance is a hundred thousand dollars on this property in Michigan, just making this up and it's non-performing. The bar was a year behind on their payments. We don't know what's going on. They just they got laid off, they stopped making their payments. We can buy that potentially for 50 to 60 thousand dollars and then there are different exit strategies that we might be able to pursue. It could be foreclosure we try to avoid that path, but we will do that if we have to and then could be a deed-in-lieu of foreclosure where we get the property, it could be usually. The best case scenario is to get the loan Reaper forming and do some type of work out with the borrower which It'd be a forbearance or a loan modification. Get that loan Reaper, forming, and then we can sell that maybe for eighty thousand dollars. So that's a non-performing, note their different approaches to those performing notes, which we also buy. We buy for cash flow and those are much more like a Buy and Hold rental property notes just like anything else have disadvantages. They do not know, investing really does not come with any tax advantages, for example, and another disadvantage is as the bar A pays down the loan, the value of that asset goes down. So the value of that note goes down because the principal balance is going down whereas most real estate over time appreciates, right? So I like to think of a non-performing notes like a Fix and Flip property where there's a clear exit point and you're adding value to that asset. And then the Performing note is more like a cash flow play like a Buy and Hold rental property. So hopefully that helps a little bit. Bit. So what's the difference between we're talking about this on a previous episode where the Dirty Little Secret in real estate investing is that the cash flows really? Not that great. And so we're basically going from transaction to transaction. Whether you're selling something long-term, let us say you have a buy and hold and a few years down, the road, your return on Equity is very low because it's appreciated a lot but the rent hasn't appreciated as much. So young. I got a lot of equity trapped in there. How do I get it out? You refinance it, or you sell it and then you take that chunk of cash and then you go and reinvest in Nelson. So the cash flow is just enough to keep everything from being foreclosed on. Basically, if you are doing enough of it, you can have a pretty decent lifestyle off of it. But for those of us who are just moving in this direction, oftentimes cash flow, is the biggest hurdle that we have. A lot of people will buy businesses, they will buy a car washes, or a franchise or something, so that they can enjoy the cash flow. Ellen, that investment that they put into the business, while they're enjoying the long-term, appreciation and built building of wealth on these assets. That like our larger real estate. So yeah, the sounds like to me like no pine wood beam. It's almost more like buying a real estate business and it would be some sort of long-term appreciation or wealth-building play. Is that correct or tell me what he looks like? So, I hate to say, it depends, but I say a lot and it really does because you can be very transactional in the note space. Just like you have wholesalers and flippers and real estate agents and on the real estate side but you can be very transactional on the Note side as well. Or there are plenty of people who do just by for cash flow. But yeah, it's I would agree if you're buying a handful of rental properties. You're not changing your life. Overnight drama. Cash flows and income standpoint. It's a long-term play. So if you're buying performing notes for cash flow, I think it's a similar thing. You're even though the assets not appreciating, you should be able to, so we can still find yields in the 12 to 15 percent range. On a performing or re performing note. So, that's not too bad. If you compare it to dividend stocks or something else, beats that, it's pretty nice benefits. Either know, the ice is true, just briefly where you were talking about other no tax benefits of note behind, there are no tax benefits to buying stock, you have to have some sort of depreciating asset, like a house or a piece of equipment in a business. And a lot of people who are looking at notes are like, oh, there's so much appreciation. There's no depreciation in most of the things that we invested. So I just wanted to put that little insertion. The thing and another point with notes is the collateral is huge. That's you don't have that in stock. If I buy a share of Apple stock, there's no collateral they company. Yes, it's supposed to be based on the earnings or whatever, but in are supposed to be, I don't know what it is now, but with mortgage notes, we invest in first lien mortgage notes for a reason because I am familiar with real estate and the, and so we do due diligence on that. Real estate itself thoroughly because that's our collateral. So if the borrower doesn't pay, we have something backing our investment. So that's a key piece to mortgage note investing. Yes, there are downsides compared to real estate, but in mortgage notes there's a kind of, the collateral is the real estate. So there's its a little more secure in that sense compared to a lot of other asset classes. So, yeah, hopefully, that makes sense. We have been looking at purchasing a business my husband is He's unemployed currently we're calling him self-employed. Yeah, and so he's just looking at all of his options, so he can start looking at unemployment like a claim here pretty soon. And so while he's looking for a new W2, and he's looking at taking a larger part of my business, and he's also looking at purchasing some sort of business. He just doesn't really know yet and that's what we're looking at for that cash flow play. But the thing I really love about note investing is it takes our real estate knowledge and really makes good use of it. We don't have to go by. A franchise for lawn care or something like that because we're real estate people. And I told him just this morning, I said it seems silly that we're, we're looking at other opportunities when our knowledge of real estate is It's Like a Surgeon saying. I want to start a YouTube channel and never cut into anybody, our highest and best skill set and go use that to really make an income and that's why notes really appealed to me because they're extremely passive, and we won't be getting depreciation off of a business anyway, but we're looking for something that has good. Slow. And I know you all are about to travel some and that's another advantage to notes as you can do it from anywhere. You truly can, it is really location-independent but yeah. Absolutely. I Mentor some people in the note space and usually what I find is that people come over from Real Estate. The most successful note investors probably have some real estate investing experience. Even if you want to separate the two they usually have some type of real estate knowledge. And so that's very helpful as you said because okay. We got that part. You have got the real estate part down the hard asset part down. The now let us learn the paper part for you have kind of Engineers who are good at, which you find in real estate as well, but good at analyzing good at spreadsheets, good, it due diligence good at running the numbers and maybe some more Banker types, like Financial. But that is one thing I love about notes to. There's no one has it all figured out there are a lot of different strategies but usually real estate or real estate is definitely a strong. I think my power just But now yeah, it's flickering. So yeah, but real estate definitely helps having real estate investing experience. Certainly helps in becoming a mortgage note investor, but there are a lot of moving parts and back to your business question. Real quick, my business just happens to be in node investing. It's almost like they're two separate things. It's like the notes are Commodities and I happen to run a business that's focused on mortgage note investing, but you can be a mortgage note investor and not really run a business out of it. I do. You think starting a business, or buying a business and running a business is probably going to be the opportunity lead to the opportunity for the highest income and profit I just think an active business. Whatever field it's in is probably going to give you the most opportunity to make the most money quite honestly. And I agree with you though. I think what happens is a lot of people end up running a business and then funneling the their profits into real estate. Eight, which is more of a long-term wealth, building play, which I think is a fantastic way to go. Yeah, I learned that at the local Angel Investors club we went because I thought, oh, I am accredited investor, and they're credited investors surrounding me and let us go do some deals together. I have got some a multifamily apartment buildings here that need some investors and when I got there I realized they all have real estate Investments coming out of their ears, and they would say things. Like, that's really how we build our foundation right now and that's why we're at An angel event because we're looking to do something that's a little bit more risky, a little bit more High, return potential and real estates one of those things where especially commercial real estate where he's just rinse and repeat, nice and stable. The business plan gets executed over and over again on each property. And I realized that I was barking up the right tree because when I am standing in a room of some of the wealthiest people in my area, they're all telling me a Beyond real estate. We all have as millions of those, right? That they to get to that point, you really do need to build it off of some sort of platform of But they got money in their business, and they, most of them are entrepreneurs, and then they invested that money into real estate. And then when the big chunks of cash, start coming back in the way that real estate, does that they will take that and go invest in something that's a little bit more of that high-potential, Tech startup type of thing and I thought, okay, so this is a path that has been done it again and again. And those are the kind of people that I am looking for in to inspire me to tell me where I am going. And so as we were talking before the show you mentioned, that figuring out where you're going from here because sometimes you can get so head down in the business that setting a new set of goals. Your second, third base home run goals can get away from you because you're so focused on the business. So tell us where you're headed and some of the things that really motivate you to keep doing what you're doing. I think in the last 12 months, I have really spent a lot of time the last 24 months. I will say a lot of time establishing Citizen and systems and things. And we started our to note funds in the last year and a half. We started a Loan Servicing Company, two years ago and I had started my note business before all that. But I am not personally I am not looking to start anything new or take on anything new this year and what's motivating? Me is my family, and we have had some challenges with parenting and some health issues in the family and things and makes you stop for a second. And as I know, you have done yourself as you realize, this is so important and it's not a matter of I am stopped. Upping my business, or I am quitting this or anything else but where I am headed is focusing on fine-tuning. Our processes and supporting my team as good as possible. Still going to work a good bit myself but continuing just I guess focusing on quality versus quantity and quality over growth. This year personally I am always trying to grow on a personal development level but from a business standpoint we have things rolling and I just want to make sure we make smart decisions. And I want to create enough mental space for myself to make good decisions from a business and family and Leadership standpoint as opposed to as you just said it's very easy to get sucked into doing the day-to-day and then all of a sudden it's Friday evening and I don't know what happened and I haven't, it's very easy for the half. The year to be over and you didn't even plan or schedule vacations and things like that, trying to be a little more focused. Ston. That type of thing, Health family and quality over business growth. Are you part-time in yourself? You work out. I mean I great question. I do I will I do want to go in that direction. One of the one time we took a vacation in Florida and I just, I would work maybe three hours in the morning, and then we go to the pool or the beach, or whatever. Go out to dinner and it was perfect. It was Ideal and I think, I don't think I will ever retire. I really don't. That's, that would be. I would like to work a little less. Yes. Okay, I have noticed something, and you tell me where you come along in this spectrum, I was listening to an interview with a high level entrepreneur, and he was saying that he was trying to learn how to invest in, he hated investing in, he hated learning about it, because if you wanted more money, he would just go make more money. And I thought to myself. Wait, what? Like, that, that seem totally foreign to me. I realized at that point. Point that I am not actually an entrepreneur. Even though I have been in this entrepreneurial space for many years, doing little cottage businesses and my investing business. I am actually an investor I want to pile up money like a Scrooge. McDuck kind of money been feeling super secure and swimming around and all of this cash. I don't want to have to go out and hustle and make more, and I realized the mindset between an entrepreneur and investor, it's two different profiles. As a where do you fall along that? I will just go make more money. I don't want to learn how to invest all the way over to The side that I am ending up on where I am like, I just want to collect checks in my mailbox. Yeah, great question and I think of the Cashflow quadrant from Robert Kiyosaki yes, which I actually thought was better than Rich. Dad Poor Dad but that's apparently controversial. But read the cash flow quadrant, they cannot read Rich, Dad, Poor Dad, big enough of that. For me I am like okay the quadrant is where you start now. So yes I agree. I got a lot more out of that book than I did at a Rich Dad, Poor Dad. Yeah, they're both good. But It's I am trying to do both. I certainly spend a lot more time in on the entrepreneur side. I am trying to move from the kind of self-employed more toward the be quadrant of running a business which is different from just working for myself. But I am also I have joined a mastermind group but that I mentioned to you before we hit record and that was maybe six seven months ago is through the wealth without Wall Street guys. It's called the passive income Mastermind. It's a small group. And who I need to heat the entire focus, is you do? You should absolutely join it. The entire focus is reaching 200 percent of your expenses through passive income and there are other ancillary legs to the stool. But they're there, for example, just planning for wealth transfer or asset protection or taxes, and things like that. It's not all about Investments. But the, for the most part it's a group of people who come together and look at different asset, different investment opportunities, which I know is right up your alley. So, I am much more heavily weighted currently toward the small business / entrepreneur side, but you absolutely need to learn how to put your money to work for itself, and I am doing both. But I don't like I said, I if I just don't want to do, I don't want to do nothing all day so and I would Rather Be Active, you might change. Yeah. I mean think now I am like, I am tired. You also have a lot of kids and that's true Family Life. Yeah, but I think I am doing both to answer your question. I am doing both and I do absolutely think like you said, there's a spectrum and I think taking the business profits and put moving it more toward in the investment side of things, makes a ton of sense, so that's what I am doing. Yeah, that's the long-term planning of the investor learning how to take the cash that you generate actively and move it into passive income Investments. Because with the way that the Cashflow quadrant works is you have got this little square like a Punnett square and there's no real path moving through it. And so, I like to think of it more than a sequencer Spectrum, where have drawn a little graphic like this and an e-book that I am working on. Where on one side of the scale, you're 100% active income and those that bar graph is eventually going to wear your 100% passive income. And there are Often 3/4 spaces in between those and everybody is along that Spectrum, somewhere, if you're an entrepreneur and you just want to keep making money if you need more. I know a lot of sales, people Express that a lot, I will just go sell something and it's just a foreign concept to me when I hear them. Say that when I realize, oh I am an investor. I am a long term planner, I want my money to work for me. I don't really want to spend the rest of my life and business. And really, the turning point for me for that was when my dad after he retired, and he had, he was he did a zillion things he passed. Away in 2019 and before that he had so many hobbies. Very handy, very smart, math, teacher and an English teacher, and he was a physicist, it just software developer, he was out in the garage and yard work. He built our house and he was an amazing jack-of-all-trades. And I remember he was, I said, what are you doing now that you're retired, a couple of years? After he retired, he's like, watch some news and I read the Reader's Digest. And I said, what about music are you still composing your music? He said, no. Not really anymore. And I said, what about this or that or not really anymore? Then he finally saw me. You know all of those things that I said that I wanted to do after I retired I said yeah, and he said I am too tired to do any of them and that's the lesson from an 80-year-old man or 75 year old man right there and I thought this is good, this clock is winding down, I would rather wear out, then rest out. But at a certain point, you do need to think ahead enough that when you are done get too tired to do, all the things you want to do that, you have the option to slow down. That's and that's the way. Yeah. And, so I think that's the word I was going to throw in. There were a Options. Because so if you have built up enough wealth, and you have enough investment Capital, working for you, you have options, right? And that's, yes, I don't know, we don't know what our lives are going to look like when we're 80, why not build up something so that it allows you to have options, and we put things in place. We could we do infinite banking as well, on the personal side, which is a whole episode to itself, whole episode, but that gives us options in certain ways on a smaller scale. I think investing and Learning how to be a good Steward of your capital and putting your money to work, is only going to give you more options. And one other thing I will throw in is I just there is no one set path and not everyone is the same, and we I don't have the same goals as everyone else and it's very easy to get caught up in what everyone else is doing. Yes, I have people ask me one, I remember one guy that was kind of trying to pick my brain, a little bit on. It was bidding on notes, so he was, he had a whole spreadsheet of Notes. He was trying to buy, and he wanted me to help him with what should I pay for these? And the next week he was sending me short-term rental opportunities. Look, you don't know what you want. You haven't figured out yourself. I don't I am not perfect but it's like I can't answer for this guy. What he should do if he doesn't even know what you know. So you have got to take an assessment of who you are, what your personality is and also where you are in life and what your goals are. So, it's It depends on saying that it did people don't like that because it doesn't sell, but it depends on your situation. Depends on your goals, but I love having options. And so that way I am never same thing with a non-performing note, if we buy it, I don't know how it's going to go. Exactly. But usually we turn out in the profitable on the profitable side of things matter how it goes. I agree in the options. I think is really what probably carrying both you and my family through this period of transitioning out of a W-2. Because I could go teach piano lessons tomorrow, right. I know you are resourceful, and we will figure out this kind of stuff. The question is, like the highest and best use of our time were still really grappling with that question. And the way that you have basically walked us through the path of where you started thinking. Now there's got to be something more than this and gradually moving through those steps. It gives a message of Hope to people who are not look leap before, you look type of people because I think that they get a lot of the attention, and they're out there saying all and three years, I went from being In a million dollars in debt to a millionaire, and those stories are can be inspiring, but at the same time uninspiring, because those, the personality type that does that be just not everybody's its on not a cop personality type and doing the gradual steps. Like you have done, I think is actually much more relatable to the person just to the investors, listening to your story. Sure, no, it makes sense and I think there's I forget what the confirmation bias or know something else but the stories you hear of what you just said. Of the dramatic turnarounds, which frankly I have those on my podcast because people love them, and they are inspiring but there's its a to look up the term. But you're only hearing the success stories. Right there are a ton of failures along the way that you're not hearing about. And so, I do think if I was a, if I would been a single guy, I probably would have played it a lot differently. So there's I probably paid a played it a little bit more safely because it wasn't just about me, but you have obviously got Gotta do what's best for you and your family and your situation. I don't think everyone should just jump immediately, but there are plenty of people who have and it's worked out. Well yeah, the gradual path worked well for me. But not everyone has the same job or whatever else. Maybe I would be doing better if I made the leap earlier. I don't know the way to know but you do the best you can at you. Like you said it depends on I always ask it, depends on what but your situation like your family situation, what are your goals? If you don't even know what your goals are, Write down, get them onto some sort of vision board, like those goals will drive you when things she either shiny object, or when things get tough Jamie, can you follow up with letting people know how to reach out to you after the podcast and more importantly, why they should reach out to you after the podcast? Absolutely. So I do have so. Labrador, lending.com is our primary website for my main business. We have got a lot of free resources. There we have information for both passive, note investors and active more. Active note investors and what that typically boils down to is the passive side, is the accredited investor, who wants to invest in a fund on the active side. We offer mentorship for people who want to learn, note investing, or maybe just want to understand it. A little bit more to the side. Oh, that's not for me. So we offer things for active and passive investors through Labrador lending.com. And the other thing, I will throw out there is my podcast, which Emma was a, I am very thankful, they Beyond thank you, Grace.