From Debt Slave to Debt Master: Nathan Turner’s Journey to Abundance in Real Estate
Episode Details
Transcript
Uncover the unexpected truth about a real estate entrepreneur's journey from adversity to abundance. Learn how a surprising mindset shift led to resilient success in the industry. Stay tuned to unravel the secrets of financial stability and real estate triumph.
My special guest is Nathan Turner
Nathan Turner is the manager of the Earnest Investing Fund, with over 15 years of experience in mortgage note investing and real estate. From overcoming personal debt and financial struggles, Nathan has thrived in the real estate space, transitioning from having debt to owning debt through resilient mindset shifts and strategic real estate ventures. With a thriving mortgage note business and the successful Diversified Mortgage Expo event, Nathan's journey is a testament to the possibilities of real estate investment even in challenging times. His expertise and experience make him an invaluable resource for individuals seeking financial stability and success through real estate investments.
"Going from debt to owning your debt and owning your situation." - Nathan Turner
"Just keep going. There's light around the corner. It's there. Just keep going." - Nathan Turner
In this episode, you will be able to:
- Master the transition from debt to mortgage note investor and level up your real estate game.
- Unleash the mindset shifts necessary for achieving real estate success and financial freedom.
- Learn the secrets to starting a real estate investment with no money down and watch your wealth grow.
- Discover the untold advantages of investing in mortgage notes and how it can supercharge your financial portfolio.
- Uncover the keys to running a successful real estate event that leaves a lasting impact and builds your network.
Connect with Nathan Turner
Website: https://earnestinvesting.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nathan.turner.35110
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nathan-turner-a9a1b510/
Diversified Mortgage Expo:
Secure your spot at the Diversified Mortgage Expo 2024 Note Investing Conference! Sign up now to access exclusive early bird pricing:
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Haven Financial Services:
Learn more: https://www.myfinancialhaven.com/jamiebateman/
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Purchase Jamie’s Book:https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CGTWJY1D?ref_=pe_3052080_397514860
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Speaker 0
Hey, everyone. This is Jamie Bateman. Real quickly, I wanted to share with you something, that's been pivotal in the growth and success of my businesses, and that is my partnership with Haven Financial Services. I've been working with Haven for over a year now. Christine Valdez was on episode seventy of this podcast. So go check that out if you wanna hear her story. It was a fantastic personal story for sure. But Haven has been awesome. They provide me with monthly reports that are super clear and discernible, and it that provides me with clarity and focus so that I can do what I do best, which is running my businesses, not preparing financial reports. Again, if you're in the market for top notch financial service company, or if you just wanna check one out, go to w w w dot jamie bateman slash haven and check out Haven Financial Services. Again, that's jamie bateman slash haven. Can't recommend them enough. Christine and her team have been fantastic. So I definitely recommend you check out Haven Financial Services at w w w dot jamie bateman forward slash haven. Let's get back to the show. This episode with Nathan Turner is really a a very relatable one. And I just love the fact that he went from being in debt. He and his wife, were not doing well financially with some franchises, and they were in a lot of personal debt, owed a lot of people money. And so they went from being in debt to owning debt. And now Nathan has been a very active mortgage note investor and real estate investor for the last, fifteen to twenty years, and he has a lot of experience in the space. And now he owns the debt that used to own him in a sense. We talk a lot about mindset shifts and mental fitness, for the real estate investor and real estate entrepreneur, how to how to still keep going through the hard times even if you don't have any money. And he he walks through how he was able to get into the flipping business and also, ended up getting into, the creating creating notes and seller financing. Even though he didn't have any of his own money, there were a lot of reasons to quit, a lot of reasons he could justify giving up, but he didn't. He pivoted, you know, his techniques depending on market conditions and and what he had in his life, available, but he did not quit. And so I think that's that's really the the big takeaways, going from debt to owning your debt and owning your situation. And now he's got a thriving mortgage note business and a fund. He runs a the diversified mortgage expo, which is one of the more popular note investing events each year. And that's coming up in Nashville at the end of May twenty twenty four. So this is a very relatable and inspiring, episode that is perfect if you are financially struggling or if you're in the real estate space at all. You're gonna you're gonna love this one. Speaker 1
Welcome to From Adversity to Abundance, the go to podcast for real estate entrepreneurs seeking not just to thrive, but to conquer with resilience and mental sharpness. Each week, join us as we dive into the compelling world of real estate through the lens of mental fitness, where challenges transform into opportunities. Get ready to transform your mindset and expand your understanding of what it takes to succeed in real estate. Let's explore these stories of triumph and resilience together. Speaker 2
Excuse me. Speaker 0
Welcome everybody to another episode of the from adversity to abundance podcast. I am your host, Jamie Bateman, and I'm thrilled today to have with us Nathan Turner. Nathan is the, manager of the earnest investing fund, which is a mortgage note fund. We're gonna get into some of that. And, also, Nathan, I know you put on an awesome mortgage note, event, and this year, it's gonna be in Nashville. It's coming up. It's called the Diversified Mortgage Expo. Nathan, thanks for joining us, man. Speaker 2
My pleasure. Thank you so much. Speaker 0
Absolutely. So before we jump back into your into your backstory, tell the listener a little bit more about what you're up to today. Speaker 2
Yeah. So my my kinda my real job is manager of the earnest investing note fund, where we buy performing notes, just for passive investors, people who are looking to build their retirement, just looking to put their money to work for them. On top of that, kind of like a side gig is running this conference, Diversified Mortgage Expo. We just took it over last year, and then this year is our second time running it. And, coming up quick here, May thirty first, June first in Nashville. And it's just all things notes. Anybody who's either interested in or well invested into notes. It's for, anybody in that hold category. Speaker 0
Absolutely. I know I've I've been to to it before, and it's, I was not able to make it last year, which was your first year running it, like you said, but it I heard a lot of very positive reviews about it. So, looking forward to it. A lot of fun. Yeah. Absolutely. So, we'll talk more about that in a bit. But, Sure. Nathan, I know you it it hasn't always been rainbows and unicorns and butterflies from a a business standpoint for you. Let's let's jump back and and and let's just dive headfirst into some of the adversity that you've been through with with running a business. Where do you wanna start? Speaker 2
Oh, boy. Well, let's start here. So I've I've never had, you know, quote, unquote, real job. I've I've always just kind of worked for myself. Like, probably the closest thing that I had was, just after my wife and I were married, we went to Korea for a year to teach English. So at that point, I was employed by somebody else. A bit unusual and a bit unorthodox, but Speaker 0
Sure. Speaker 2
That's probably the last Speaker 0
time that I've Speaker 2
actually had somebody else pay me. Speaker 0
Wow. That that that was a long time ago, Speaker 2
That was. We have been married. So it was right after we got married. This year is our twenty third wedding anniversary. So it Speaker 0
was Congrats. Speaker 2
About twenty two years ago. Speaker 0
That's A long time ago. And before we start talking about the the some of the your your business ventures Yeah. Was it did you know? I mean, because, you know, everyone everyone's situation is different. Everyone's story is different. Everyone's path is different as far as you know, for example, I had some businesses a long time ago, you know, lawn and landscaping business. I had a I had a I never really talk about this one, but I had a gumball machine business and, you know, just a little you know? And then went to college and eventually got a real job. And, but I I did seven years part time at my, quote, unquote, real job while I was building my real estate and note investing businesses. Yeah. So not everyone has that same path. Did you know, you know, just when did you know I'm an entrepreneur? Speaker 2
I think for me, the revelation came where we had our first my wife and I's first business, the Curves franchise. It was that gym for women that happened years ago. And it was shortly after we opened our first location. And I remember being home, and, I mean, really, really, it was it was after our first daughter was born, and I was home. I was working from home. And she's, you know, apple of my eye and, you know, just such a blessing in our lives. And then the realization to me came that and I said to my wife, I actually don't care what I do from here on out as long as I can work from home. And I know that's that's not for everybody. And certainly the office has this place, and and it's a great thing. But for me, I was like, no. This is this is what it's all about. So Like that's probably the moment. Speaker 0
That makes sense. And and, I mean, truth, you know, truth be told that that back then, people listening now might be like, well, why didn't you just take a job working from home? Well, it really wasn't a a thing. Speaker 2
Not really. Not back then. No. Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
And then and yeah. And we'll maybe get into it, but there's certainly been times where I'm like, maybe I should just go to get a job where things were Speaker 0
I hear you. Either yeah. Either for I mean, it could be sounds like financial reasons. But, also, sometimes, you know, working from home also has some some downsides as well just from a day to day Yeah. Living standpoint. But, Yeah. So okay. You mentioned Curves. So talk about talk about that business, if you would. Speaker 2
So Curves was a it was a franchise, women's fitness, and a fantastic concept where they use hydraulic machines, where ladies would go around and women only. So that it was a comfortable place for women to come and work out that Speaker 0
Mhmm. Speaker 2
You know, they're not the gym bunny. They're not going with the big muscly guys eyeing them and stuff. Mhmm. But they would go, and it was just a comfortable place to do it. And because they're hydraulic machines, the more the more you pushed on it, the more it would resist. So it was really tailored to all fitness levels. It was really a great concept. So we opened our first one two thousand four. We actually moved to Quebec in Canada, which is a French province. And my wife and I both had some French, so we thought, yeah, we can do this. We're young. Sure. Why not? The plan was we were gonna move there, open up the business, stay there for a year, and then move, back closer to her family in Ontario. That was the plan. We we thought we'd be there for a year. Speaker 0
Yeah. We know what Mike Tyson says about plans. Hit in the face. Speaker 2
And we certainly got hit in the face multiple times. But, yeah, we ended up staying there almost nineteen, by the time we finally moved away. So certainly not what we originally planned on. But Speaker 0
Sure. So okay. You opened the first yeah. Okay. And now just briefly, why why a franchise? Speaker 2
Well, it started when we're in Korea where, we're coming back to Canada, and we thought, okay. Now what? What do we do now, as far as life and work and those kinds of things? We'd we'd been able to pay off all of our debt and create a little bit of a nest egg for ourselves. We're like, yeah. We got this. We can do whatever. Mhmm. And then separately, my mother and my father-in-law both sent us different information within maybe a week of each other, all about curves and this new franchise that was coming up. And and we're Okay. So we're like, okay, that's interesting. And so we looked more into it, and it looked like something that we could do and something exciting to kind of sink our teeth into. Both of us spoke French, and the only place you could still buy a franchise territory was in Quebec. We're French speaking. So we're like, yeah, you know what? We got this. We can do this. So we're we're up for an adventure. We thought, we could make a go of it. Speaker 0
Got it. Speaker 2
That's how we got started. Speaker 0
Okay. Alright. So, you know, we've we've alluded to the fact that things did not go to plan. Speaker 2
Not exactly. Speaker 0
So so how did your your curves experience look overall? I mean, what what what was the, you you how many how many locations did you end up having? What did things look like? Speaker 2
We ended up having two. So after, after the first year, there were maybe forty franchises in Quebec, and we were in the top five, maybe even the top three of the largest clubs. So it was very successful. We were doing really well. We're like, yeah. This is cool. Let's make this our life. So we're like, okay. We'll we'll open another and then maybe another, maybe another. We'll see. So we opened up the second right from the get go. We knew just according to the area, we knew it wouldn't be as successful as the first. Just because of the demographics and stuff, We just we knew that was gonna be the case. But we also knew you know, figured it would be profitable. Mhmm. And then it it was barely. It was, like, just barely making any profit, month after month, and then and then it wasn't. And then we started getting into two thousand seven, and I think everybody could kinda see the writing on the wall where economy was just starting to dip. And then by two thousand eight, when things were really going down, if people are trying to save money, what's the first thing they kept in? Gym membership. Sure. So Yeah. That was tough. So then it just went down and down and down. So just prior to that, well, we'll get into that in maybe a minute. But that that second location, it was great. But like I say, it was just kinda barely making it. And and we're having to take money from the first club Mhmm. Put it back into the second one from sometimes, and and other times not. But it was just kinda like just barely hanging on. Speaker 0
So Speaker 2
that's that was kind of where we started thinking about, like, okay. What else can we do here? Because Mhmm. We wanna keep doing this or something else. And that's that's when I kinda fell into real estate. Speaker 0
Okay. So before we get to real estate, so how did how did you decide to, like, how did you and your your wife divide and conquer on the business side of things? You know? Because I I've worked with my wife in on business things before, and it's you know, she'll tell you it comes with its own set of challenges for sure. Yeah. What did that look like? What did you which role what role did you each play? Speaker 2
So initially initially, I was kind of the behind the scenes guy. So I did, like, the marketing and, you know, the accounting and things like that. And she was the face. I was a women's fitness place, so she was the one she was there literally every day. Every it was open six days a week, so she was there six days a week most of the day. And it was right maybe six or, I don't know, ten months in, somewhere in that range, where, we wanted to we it was at that point we wanted to have our second child. So we already had our baby and we wanted another one with we're looking at just our life and going like, how's that gonna work? And how's that gonna be with two kids, and mom working all day? And I was home, but is that what we wanted? And Mhmm. So a lot of looking at that. And and eventually, we just decided, no. You know what? For us, it was it was mom should be in home. Mom is much better than dad in a lot of cases. So we kinda flip flopped, where she ended up staying home. And then she because she was home, she could do a lot of that background stuff. And then I would sometimes, I wouldn't go in very often, but I would go into the club a couple of times a week, get rid of reports I needed, deposits and things like that. And the ladies knew me and, you know, I was I I was the one guy that was allowed in and that kind of thing. Right. So it was okay. But, again, we didn't have that omnipresence that we had before. And it was really I think that's where it kind of started to to crack a little bit where we had to hire managers, and then they weren't handling things exactly the way we would have. And Yeah. You know, you start to lose a little bit of that control. Speaker 0
That oversight and control. Yeah. Yeah. So it was because of your family situation, you you two had to pull back as a unit some, and you just weren't as hands on, and therefore, you're hiring, which creates more expenses and then less control. And, so what did it look like if you're willing to share, you know, from a financial standpoint or anything like that as far as Yeah. Maybe maybe how much did you did you put into these, and what did the business overall, if you're if we're talking curves overall, kind of Yeah. Just how did it look financially all said and done? Speaker 2
Yeah. I don't mind sharing. So like those like I say, those first couple of years, we were doing well, and we've we were kinda looking at it and going, okay. If we can duplicate what the first one was doing Mhmm. If we could do that, like, three or four times, we'd be sitting really pretty. That would be fantastic. The second one did not perform the same as the first. Mhmm. Speaker 0
And we're Speaker 2
like, okay. Speaker 0
And Speaker 2
then eventually so as time goes on, you know, it's kinda up and down and up and down and kind of in a downward downward line. Speaker 0
Trajectory. Yep. Speaker 2
And then, we had put up this we decided we wanted to sell, and just kind of try something else, do something else. Mhmm. We had originally listed both clubs for two hundred thousand dollars each. K. By the time we eventually sold in two thousand nine, we had shut down that second one and combined the membership to the first. And by the time we finally sold, we've sold that one club for twenty thousand, after putting in a lot of money, tens of thousands of dollars into rent and payroll and things that we just the club wasn't producing for itself. Speaker 0
Gotcha. No. I appreciate you being, you know, open and transparent, and and that's one of the things we try to bring out in this on this show is is the fact that you and I were chatting a little beforehand, but business can be hard. Business can be really hard. And it, it's it's not for everyone. It can bleed over into other areas of your life if things aren't going well, can affect your relationships. And, so we're gonna get to real estate in a second here, which is Yeah. Obviously both both of our, you know, wheelhouses. Mentally, where were you and your wife when when you sold, you know, for twenty twenty thousand? The show is a is a lot about mental health and mental fitness. Fragile. Okay. Yeah. So Yeah. Yeah. Talk about talk about what that looked like from a mental standpoint and and just mindset and what, you know, how did you kinda climb your way out, mentally from that, you know, from I imagine it was a fairly dark place. Speaker 2
It was. It was, I mean, incredibly stressful where, I mean, talk about losing sleep at night. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Where literally I was not sleeping at night just, you know, up worrying about all these different things and bills do and things like that. And it was brutal. It was really hard. And then we had our two little ones at home, and we're it was soon after that, we had our third. And and, that was in itself very stressful. We had actually we lost our first child. We've so we've got four kids, but we're raising three. The first one was stillborn. So pregnancies were already super challenging and very, very, yeah, very stressful. So then add on the business to that. Speaker 0
Right. Speaker 2
And and getting back to the real estate thing, that's what kinda kept us afloat for as long as it did, until we started to till till we were eventually able to transition into a full time and start to turn things around, but it's taken some time. Speaker 0
Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's one of those we talk about that that, you know, you were in the sort of the the valley for probably probably several years. You know, it sounds like and then we'll gloss over it, and it it'll sound like it was a bad day. Yeah. Yeah. And so just just for the listener, you know, it it's your your Nathan went through a really hard time. I I've been through some hard times and, you know, both personally and professionally, and everyone listening is going to go through additional hard times, and and it's part of life. And that's that's that's the adversity that we're guaranteed to to face. So were there any we're gonna get to the real estate, but were there any sort of mental tricks or habits or any kind of, you know, mindset shifts that you started to put in place to to help you maybe see the real estate opportunity? Speaker 2
Yes. I I've I kind of from the time that we started working in business, so I started reading books like, Rich Dad Poor Dad, Million in Our Mind, things like that, where it helps me to start looking around and seeing different opportunities. So that's what kinda got me going in the real estate in the first place. But then even on top of that, I remember very distinctly at one point, and I don't remember exactly when, but I remember very much that I was sitting there and I'm I kinda had the realization that I'm the boss. That means I run the company. The company doesn't run me. And that was very much a mind shift Speaker 0
where it Speaker 2
was like, no. No. No. No. I'm taking charge. I'm the one that runs things, not the business telling me what to do. Speaker 0
Yeah. I love that. Speaker 2
Hold on. And just that reversal. Speaker 0
Yeah. So and, you know, some people might hear that and freak out or but the way you're explaining it and the way I'm understanding it is that it's it's a liberating realization. Speaker 2
Definitely. Speaker 0
It's you're yes. You're taking ownership. Yes. There's responsibility now on your shoulders, but that was already there anyway. Yeah. It's just now you have control and influence over how this thing the direction of your business and your ultimately, your your family's, you know, future. Okay. So Speaker 2
That was a big deal for me. Speaker 0
I had a similar just mindset shift in a little bit few years after you did. But just twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, I started listening to more real estate podcasts and reading more real estate books and just more positive mindset, you know, influences in my life. And I turn I stopped watching the news and started paying attention to the strengths that I had in my life and the the people in my life and the resources that were available, to make a change. And, so I can I can identify with that for sure? So we're talking you said around two thousand nine, two thousand ten. Is that when you started to make the transition into real estate? Speaker 2
Yeah. More full time. More full time. I'd so, going back. So let's go back a little bit. Yeah. We're running the curves, And, I got a call from somebody. They wanted to meet with me about, being able to get discounted cleaning products. Speaker 0
Okay. Speaker 2
I'm like, sure. We do cleaning products. You know, we clean stuff all the time. So, sure, let's have a conversation. Mhmm. So I met up with her at one of the gyms, and, we go into the little side office thing. And she we kinda chatted for a little bit. And as we're chatting, she said something about, the real estate market in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. And if you know you don't know where that is, that's fine. Most people don't. Yeah. It's like straight up from Wyoming is where that would be. Small farming city, about two hundred thousand people. But she's like, yeah, it's really booming out there. And it just kind of like flicked in my mind. I'm like, oh, that's interesting. And then she proceeded to try to, get me to join Melaleuca, and buy Melaleuca products and Speaker 0
Okay. Speaker 2
This multilevel thing and that and for me marketing. Yeah. Yeah. I was just not interested at all. And then Sure. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it just was not for me. Speaker 0
Right. It's, it's not my thing either. Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 0
For sure. Speaker 2
But I did take that little piece of information. I went, really? Saskatoon? I'd been there. My dad was born there. And so we visited some family. It's a pretty sleepy town. Like, it's not really farming city. That's it. That's what they do. But I knew somebody that lived there, so I called and I said, hey. What's going on in Saskatoon? Like, is is there a lot of real estate going on? He's like, oh, you mean Saskaboom? And he just, like, went off and talking about prices is just going up and up and up every month. And I'm like, really? Saskatoon? So that was kind of, like, that whole idea of keeping your eyes open, around, like, interesting. Speaker 0
Yeah. You could have either not met with this person about the cleaning Yeah. Thing, or you could have really just dismissed it as I'm not interested by, but you were listening and open to opportunities. Right? Speaker 2
And and before that, even the but after that, I'm like, I will never turn down a meeting. I don't care what it's about because there's gonna be something that we can follow. Speaker 0
That's a good point. Right? Speaker 2
So I I talked to everybody because who knows? You never know. Sure. But that was it. So then we started flipping properties. Speaker 0
Okay. Speaker 2
And sure enough, the the real estate market was red hot where I could go I would pack up a suitcase full of tools and a sleeping bag. Uh-huh. So I'd go and I'd sleep on the floor and I would work sixteen hours a day, just renovating whatever house we had just bought Okay. Using my brother in law's money, to go out and and get this project done. And it worked fantastically well. And it was enough that it it kept us afloat, and it helped keep the businesses afloat where we ended up most of that. The vast majority of that went back into those businesses just to just to keep them afloat, pay for, like I say, rent, payroll, those kinds of things. Speaker 0
Yeah. This was the curves business as you're saying that Yeah. This went back into. Right? So you were doing the flipping pretty much the whole time you were running the curves franchises? Speaker 2
The last couple of years. Yeah. Speaker 0
Last couple of years. Got it. So what time frame are we talking about that you were doing flipping? Speaker 2
Started doing that, like, in two thousand six. So I did, between two thousand six and seven, I think I did six properties. Speaker 0
Okay. Speaker 2
We fixed and flipped. Speaker 0
Nice. Speaker 2
And it worked really well except for the last one where, again, that economy just started to change. Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
And so I ended up having to rent it out because I'm like, well, I guess that's what you do when you own property. You can't sell it. You rent it. Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
And I figured out very quickly that I really liked the cash flow because, surely, we needed it at that point. Sure. But I didn't like anything else. It was Yeah. Really difficult to manage, especially from afar. It was just a major headache. I'm like, man, why do people do this? Like, I don't see it. I don't see the the draw. Speaker 0
The draw. Yeah. I mean, I I similar to you, I got into rental properties first before I got into mortgage notes, and, I never had a flipping business. We've re we we're more doing the the BRRR method where you rehab and then hold the property and Yeah. Keep trying to do that again. In current conditions, I don't think that's a real strong play right now. But, you know, but, Yeah. But it was working for us, and my wife and I held on to those those properties, which is, and we've got property managers. So it's really not not too too much of a headache, but it's a it's an important piece of our cash flow for sure. But, yeah, it's it's it's a different thing. Flipping is a transactional, very hands on thing, and you can get a lump sum, which is nice, then you gotta go out and do it again. Yeah. So okay. So then, you had you were kind of a forced landlord, if you will, on that last flip. And then where did things go from there? Speaker 2
So it was, and then we finally sold the curves. So I'm like, okay. At least it's off my plate. You know what I mean? And Yeah. We were even further in debt at that point, and now we owed, you know, all kinds of money to all kinds of people and but the bleeding had stopped. So good enough. Speaker 0
Gotcha. And Speaker 2
then it was soon after that where, it was a friend of mine also from Canada. He'd moved down to California. He'd met up with this group of investors where they had bought a portfolio of properties, mostly centered in the Midwest. And Mhmm. They bought in o seven. Mhmm. April of o seven right at the top of the market. And by the fall of two thousand eight, they're like, oh, shoot. What do we do with this stuff? Like, it's not what we thought it was, and the value has certainly dropped and all that. So they basically just kind of gave us whatever freedom they said. So you guys have power of returning over all of this. Do what you can. So we started we we thought we'd invented seller financing. We're like, oh, this is a great idea. We'll sell it on terms. So that was that was the method that we had created to start selling those. So that was really my first introduction to notes was selling these properties on terms. Alright. So creating notes. Speaker 0
Yeah. So it can be a hypothetical or a real example, but just give us a short version of a a case study. So with some numbers behind it, what what does that look like if what what are you talking about? So just for the listener who's less familiar with this, what what did what did one of those, properties and those projects look like? Speaker 2
So you gotta go back in time a little bit. So this is, like, two thousand eight, two thousand nine, Midwest, houses that were already in disrepair in two thousand seven. So this before the crash they were in, they're in rough shape. Mhmm. So I would, rent a car and go and drive around, to go and kind of inspect these properties and see what was going on with them. I had a vinyl printing machine, like a vinyl cutter. And so I would make a sign that says own a home for less than rent with my phone number. So we would look at market rent and say it was, like, four hundred dollars on this house. K. Then we would sell it to you for three hundred and fifty bucks a month. We would get, like, a thousand dollars down payment Speaker 0
Mhmm. Speaker 2
And three hundred and fifty bucks a month. The deal is you as the borrower, as the occupant, you are the one in charge of fixing up the property Speaker 0
Mhmm. You Speaker 2
know, taking care of it, doing all that stuff. We're just basically providing the financing for you, so that after whatever time it was, five years or something like that, then the rent you're paying a portion of that, like, it was a lease agreement, basically. Speaker 0
Lease lease option. Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Speaker 2
And we'll set it up so that, you know, after a certain time, you've created a little more equity. You created it up and it's in better shape, all that kind of idea. Speaker 0
Got it. Speaker 2
So that was that was really kind of the beginnings of that plan. Speaker 0
Foray into mortgage note investing. Speaker 2
Yeah. Speaker 0
Yeah. Yeah. Got it. Speaker 2
And not knowing really what I was doing. We, you know, we did it all wrong. The paperwork was totally wrong and, you know, made all kinds of mistakes, but it was that was the introduction. Speaker 0
Mhmm. And what what states was this in? You said Midwest. Speaker 2
Midwest. So, like, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, primarily. And then we had a couple others in, a couple in Kentucky, one or two in Texas, one or two in Georgia, a few, you know, outliers, but the vast majority were those three states. Speaker 0
So at this point, was your was your wife mostly she wasn't really involved in that side of the business? Speaker 2
No. She was home, taking care of kids and just, you know, trying to keep things going as best we could. Speaker 0
Oh, I yeah. It's definitely a lot to manage. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So okay. So you, how many of those lease option or seller finance type deals did you did you do? Speaker 2
So we the it was a package of sixty properties. We seller financed out maybe maybe twenty five. Speaker 0
Gotcha. And then you sold off the other properties? Speaker 2
Yeah. Sold them off or in some cases, the city, you know It condemned destroyed the house because it was in such bad shape or Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
Lost it to taxes or something. So there's a variety of the other things. But but we did enough of the seller finance ones that we're like, this is cool. Like, this given the right circumstances, this is a really cool idea. Good option. Speaker 0
Well, I think what's cool too is, is, like, with your flipping, k, you you were in debt. I mean, you you at least at some point so you had a but you realize there's access to capital, someone else's money Right. Speaker 2
If you're Speaker 0
able to still it wasn't a reason for you to just quit. Right? Right. There was still a lot of cards stacked against you and a lot of adversity, but Yeah. You found a way to make that work through someone else's money. And then with this sixty property portfolio, I don't know the the relationship or every, you know, ins and outs of the there, but you were helping someone else with their problem. You had more time, I I'm guessing, than they had. Yeah. And so you're gathering all this experience and knowledge along the way without using any of your own money, and you're you're making money through that process. What did I get wrong there? Speaker 2
No. That you nailed it. And then at the same time so, two thousand nine, we had we had started making some of these contracts because that's we didn't know they were called notes. Mhmm. Started making some of these, and then I heard about a class happening down in Texas where what he was describing sounded a lot like what we're doing. Similar. Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
Yeah. So I go down there, and mister Eddie Speed is teaching his class all about buying what I was making, these notes. I'm like, oh, they're called notes. Okay. Cool. Speaker 0
That's so funny. Speaker 2
And that was kind of that that introduction to this larger world. And then he's he told me about this conference coming up, in the fall of two thousand nine called Noteworthy that was happening down in New Orleans. So we got, you know, we got permission from these guys, to use some of their money to send us down to New Orleans and learn more about we're doing and do it better. Awesome. Awesome. Immediately started making those connections and contacts, and that's been just the launchpad for sure. Speaker 0
That's that's really, really cool. So in the last, sounds like fifteen years is when is how long you've been doing, like, the the note thing. Yeah. Maybe a little bit little bit longer. But since you heard the term note and, it's been fifteen years, what have been, some of the ups and downs in the last fifteen years when it comes to mortgage note investing? Speaker 2
That's a good question because it hasn't all been just fantastic and perfect. Yeah. Definitely. Still ups and downs. So we had those sixty properties. You know, there there wasn't a whole lot there to work with, so it was what it was. Mhmm. My old partner and I, we started raising money to go out and do the same kind of thing we're doing, but with higher quality property, higher quality borrowers and things. Mhmm. And had some success with that. Like, it was decent, but not fantastic. And, again, huge learning arena. Yeah. And then just kinda up and up and up, like, slowly slowly but surely. I worked for a hedge fund for a year Okay. Which, again, just added to the experience. Yep. Helped pay the bills for, again, just a little while. And it was in twenty fifteen early twenty fifteen. My old partner, he's like, you know what? I've got this other opportunity. I gotta take it. I said, no problem. Speaker 0
So you did work for somebody else after, Speaker 2
I did. Technically, that's true. That's true. By on contract, I wasn't officially employed. Speaker 0
Fair. Fair. Alright. Speaker 2
That's fair. Contract. Speaker 0
Yeah. Yeah. Semantics. But yeah. I hear you. No. I'm I'm yeah. I'm I'm with you. So you see you got I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. But, so and sounds like that was a the contract experience was a positive one. You got got good experience, got some pay for it, paid the bills. Yeah. That's good. So that's always good. And then so in the last nine years then since twenty fifteen, what is your mortgage note investing career looked like? Speaker 2
That's when it really has that's when it made the biggest difference. It's I I felt like those first few years was a lot of learning and just kind of getting it done. And then after that, started, you know, on my own, going out and raising some money for going out and buying notes. And I'd when I first started, it was all for non performing notes. Mhmm. And, and that can be a challenge in and of itself where Speaker 0
Yeah. For sure. Speaker 2
You think it's going one way and it goes a different way. And Yeah. You think you're gonna make this much and make that much. And so that was Speaker 0
So talk about that Speaker 2
bigger role of the poster. Speaker 0
Sorry to interrupt. Yeah. The you know, there's there are a lot of nuances within the note spaces you and I both know. And Yeah. First, seconds, contracts for deed, mortgage notes, deeds of trust, whatever. But, you know, how did you kind of moving away, it sounds like you moved away from nonperforming notes because you mentioned earlier in your fund, earnest investing Yeah. Fund you, you buy performing notes. So was that shift from nonperforming to performing, was that market conditions driven, or was that really just that you that's just what you prefer? It's more predictable. What were the reasons to move away from the nonperforming side? Speaker 2
Kind of all the above. So market conditions for sure. Availability and, pricing just got worse in both of those cases. Yep. So that was that was a big part of it. And and I'll tell you, going from the adversity due to abundance thing is Yeah. A big draw for my wife and I looking at this was if we set up a fund and we start buying performing notes, you mean we could have monthly income? Right. With the nonperforming, you know, we make a bunch of money one month and then not nothing for another Speaker 0
month or two. Back to your fix and flip days, but it could be even a longer hold potentially. And Yeah. Like you said, it's it's very hit or miss with the Speaker 2
Yeah. Speaker 0
On the NPL side. And for those who are unfamiliar, we're we're talking about creating or buying debt. And so then you're the, essentially, the quote, unquote bank. No. Nathan is not a bank. I'm not a bank, but you become the lender in that sense. You're you're acquiring or originating. You're acquiring existing mortgage debt or originating seller finance debt. So some people are, you know, it's so this may be a foreign concept to some people, so we won't go too deep on that. But, so talk about the last maybe two or three years of your mortgage note career. What does that look like? Speaker 2
Again, just up and up, and it's just, it because this is a relatively small space Yeah. You know, relationships, connections, networking, like, whatever you wanna call it. It's all the same thing, but it's it's really, it has so much to do with who you know. And so just over and it's not something you can just create No. Day one. That takes time. And so over time, that's been building up. And so it was last year that I took over this conference. Right. And I was approached by the old owners and they said, you know what? It's just not for us. Yeah. Are you interested? And my first thought was the networking and just those connections and the contacts. I'm like, that absolutely. Speaker 0
Yeah. For sure. I I remember talking to you at the, Diverside Mortgage Expo two years ago, Speaker 2
and Speaker 0
you had decided to take it over for Yeah. Last year. Yeah. And you you said that you had some experience running events as well. Yeah. So to me, it's like, okay. Maybe you hadn't done this exact event before, but you're pointing you're drawing off of your experience and your strengths and, yeah, you're pushing the boundary, probably stretching your your own comfort, you know, out of your own comfort zone a little bit, I'm guessing. But but you've done you've done similar things. So Yeah. Yeah. And and and like I said, it's gone it's gone really well from what I've seen. And that Yeah. You're absolutely right. I mean, people ask me all the time, you know, where do I buy these mortgage notes? It's like, well, it's a relationship game. Yep. So chill out a little bit and start building relationships. You know? And, And Speaker 2
that's my answer is go to conferences. Mhmm. You know, mine, somebody else's, it doesn't matter, but you have to go to conferences. It makes such a difference. Speaker 0
Sure. Speaker 2
Just getting face to face with people. Speaker 0
And I think now after the pandemic, it's even more important. I don't know about you, but it's very easy for me to be sort of isolated working from home, and, you know, I'm on Zoom or Teams all day long. And then it's like, yep. Did I really actually connect with anyone? You know? Speaker 2
Yeah. Exactly. Speaker 0
Live events, I think, are even more critical now than they than they were five years ago. Speaker 2
Yeah. Speaker 0
So okay. So it's just gone up and up and up, and I know, you you, you have a podcast as well. Right? Speaker 2
Yeah. Dave Putzine, we do a a podcast together. It's fun. We don't we're our businesses are not actually connected at all. We just do a podcast together because Yeah. It's fun and interesting, and we learn stuff. Speaker 0
Yeah. Absolutely. What's did you say the name of it? Speaker 2
No. So if you're looking for it, easiest way is just go JKP Holdings. Got it. Search that on YouTube or Spotify or whatever. Yep. And we've got three years now. We've been doing this a little more than three years. Yeah. And so I don't know how many dozens of episodes that is, but a a lot. Speaker 0
Well, it's, when Chris Seveny asked me to join his good deeds note investing podcast years ago, my first reaction to myself was no way because I was just not comfortable. And, actually, I wanna talk about this with you. I I'm not an extrovert. I mean, I'm definitely an introvert. And it it's, it it just was are you kidding me? Whereas Chris can just, like he'll just talk to anybody and, you know, spout things off. And he he's in his wheelhouse behind the mic, but, it scared scared me, but I knew I should say yes for the exact same reason you said yes to running the diversified mortgage expo. Speaker 2
Mhmm. Speaker 0
Different things, but that I knew this would help me, you know, network and get out there and just sort of, you know, meet expand my own connections and help me professionally and personally. And it really hasn't. And now I've launched this podcast, which is a Yeah. Sort of a, in a sense, a spin off of that one. But Yeah. I know, sort of public speaking and being being out in in the front and center in front of a big crowd is maybe not naturally your your thing. No. To talk about the the growth, the personal growth and mindset growth that you've experienced on that front. Speaker 2
So, it's I do quite a bit of public speaking now, and I'll tell you pretty much every time, I still get butterflies. Like, it's it's not one hundred percent comfortable. It's not my it's not my comfort zone to be out in front. I can do it and I actually do enjoy it, but I'm nervous every time. So that's the first thing we'll start with. Speaker 0
So Speaker 2
if you're in that camp Yeah. Don't worry about it. That's okay. Speaker 0
And I exactly. That's right. And it's like people nowadays, I I'm not there's way too much anxiety and stress, and that's a real thing. I'm not knocking that, when it's an extreme. We definitely have a mental health crisis on our hands. That said, it's okay to get butterflies. It's okay to be nervous because that means you care about your presentation and how things go. And you wouldn't be human if you didn't have some level of of stress beforehand. That's that's my opinion anyway. Speaker 2
For sure. And then the trick is having those butterflies and that nervousness and then doing it anyway. That's the trick. Speaker 0
That's right. I love that. Speaker 2
But just push through because Yeah. It's not that big a deal. Honestly and truly, it's really not. And and the honest truth is, if it's not a perfect presentation, if it's, you know, you're kind of flubbing through it a little bit, people like that because they know Speaker 0
they can Speaker 2
totally identify with that. So that's there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Yeah. In so many ways. And I've been told that too, where they're like, I like your presentation because, you know, you're real. I'm like You're relatable. I don't know how else Speaker 0
to be, but okay. Thanks. Right. Right. I like Speaker 2
that you really screwed up. No. Speaker 0
But but, no. You're right. And and the truth is too, you zoom out, yeah, after you've done a few of these DME events, and no one's gonna remember what you said two years ago. It's so it's like, it's not that big of a deal if you make them if you fumble things a little bit. Okay. So you've definitely expanded your mindset and expanded push you yourself outside of your comfort zone from a public speaking standpoint. Got the podcast. You've got the conference. And then now now you and you have your fund. Are those kind of the the main things from a professional standpoint that you have going on? Speaker 2
Yeah. Mainly. Couple other kinda side projects. But Yeah. Yeah. But mainly, that's it. And it's and it's good. And it keeps me very busy, which I actually really like. There's times for sure where I'm like, just I just need a break for a minute. But, really, I would rather be busy than bored. So Yeah. Speaker 0
Grateful that Speaker 2
I can be busy. Speaker 0
So is, I'm gonna try not to answer this one myself. Speaker 2
Kind of. If you can get a portfolio of so there's a couple of ways that it can there's levels of passive passivity. Speaker 0
Yes. Yeah. Speaker 2
If you're running your own portfolio, and it's all performing, sort of. Speaker 0
Relatively. Yeah. Speaker 2
There's always gonna be something you're gonna have to deal with. There's at the very least, you're gonna have to talk to your servicer at least once a month, and just get updates on things and then have decisions to make on whatever the outcome of those meetings are. Yeah. So at the very minimal, you'll have to have that. The the most passive way to invest in notes is into a fund. And Hundred percent. Sounds like a plug, but it really is. Speaker 0
It can be both things can be true. It can be a plug, and and it and it can be the most passive way. Yeah. And, you know, you and I each have I still have a a fund that's open, Integrity Income Fund. Mhmm. And it it I couldn't agree more. It's it's the most passive way to be a note investor. I think buying stocks and bonds is probably, you know, the about as passive as it gets, but you still should watch it. And Yeah. So I I agree that it's a it's a spectrum. It's not either or. Yeah. People like, to hear that everything's black and white, but the fact is there's a lot of in between in in note investing. And if you're running a massive nonperforming note fund, that is not passive. Speaker 2
That is true. Speaker 0
If you're managing Yeah. You're you're raising capital, managing the assets, it's not passive. So hard work. Yeah. Absolutely. But but we but you and I each have a path for the passive note investor to. And I and I will say there are a lot of benefits to note investing that you don't find in real estate. To me, it's a little bit safer. Nothing's nothing's fully safe, but if you're investing in first lien mortgage notes that are backed by hard real estate Mhmm. You know, that's that's fairly safe, you know, relative to a lot of the other investment options out there. You may not, you know, you may not get a thirty percent return as a passive note investor. I mean, you you won't. Yeah. Speaker 2
And that's that's the trade off. The more passive, probably the less return you're gonna get more or less. Yeah. Speaker 0
Generally. Agreed. Awesome. Well, you ready for some rapid fire questions? Yeah. Alright. I've got a couple that I'm gonna that are new here. Okay. In your opinion, what is the role of luck versus skill in real estate success? Speaker 2
There's certainly a degree of being in the right place at the right time. But a big part of that is just having your ears and eyes open to opportunities because there are tons all over if you're paying attention and if you know what to watch and listen for. Speaker 0
So Speaker 2
that's what I would say. Speaker 0
That's a that's a great answer. Here's a little controversial one. What are some unethical practices you've witnessed in real estate or mortgage note investing? Speaker 2
Oh, I'll tell you. I was part of a I wasn't the only one, which kinda makes me feel better, where there it was wire fraud. Somebody working for one of these hedge funds. And, unbeknownst to me and I think about six or seven other investors, the guy working for this fund, I don't know how he thought he would get away with it, but he when we when it came time to purchase the note, you send a wire to the to the company, and then they send you the documents. He had set up his own bank account. So instead of sending money to the fund like I thought I was, I sent it right to him. Wow. I was actually the smallest investor in that scheme. But, he in total, he took everybody for just under a million dollars, which is a big ticket. So, I mean, I'm not quite sure what happened. I know FBI was into it and all these other things because that's a pretty big amount. Speaker 0
Absolutely. That can happen. Yeah. Ask you how you know. Right? What about recently? Any, surprising market trends or market changes that that you've, weren't necessarily expecting, and how have you adapted to that? Speaker 2
I've been interested to see the different kinds of notes coming out lately. I've seen, raw land notes have become, like, a bit more popular lately, and short term loans, like Yeah. Bridge loans. Flip loans, that kind Speaker 0
of thing. Speaker 2
Bridge loans. Those have been more common where I didn't see any of those, you know, five years ago. And now I'm seeing Speaker 0
sense. Yeah. Banks have really tightened up Yeah. Their underwriting standards. So it's hard to get a loan if even if you have millions of dollars in your own bank account and you want a loan, it's hard to walk into a bank and get a loan right now. Yeah. Yeah. So that there's that gap is being filled. Got it. Awesome. Alright. What is a a challenge that you're facing in your own business right now? Speaker 2
For me, actually, I would say raising capital. Yeah. That's, that's for me, that's the bottleneck. I've got tons of deal flow, and then Mhmm. I hate saying no to deals, but I'm I'm having to do that just because I don't have the capital available. As soon as I get money in from an investor, it it's right up the door, like, within a week. So it's Speaker 0
Yeah. Speaker 2
That's been the challenge is just getting the money in the door quick enough. Speaker 0
Inflation and just higher rates, higher cost of living, higher, you know, interest rates, and it's just been harder to raise capital in the last Yeah. Three years than it was before that. Yeah. Alright. Back on the personal side, what is one thing that people misunderstand about you? Speaker 2
Something people misunderstand. I think, you know, they'll see me out at a conference or something, and I can I can do the stage thing? I can do the speaking, but really and truly, I would rather just be at home watching a movie. I I I like quiet. Right now, the house is empty. That's my favorite. I just like it just a nice quiet, calm environment. So the the conference thing is the total opposite of that. Mhmm. And like I say, I can do it, but my preference is actually calm, quiet. Speaker 0
Yeah. So you're you're worn out after it. Speaker 2
I am. Yeah. Speaker 0
If you could have coffee with any historical figure, who would you choose? Speaker 2
Let's go with Thomas Edison. Speaker 0
Okay. Speaker 2
Wow. I tenacity is the word for him. Just, you know, the light bulb thing where it's hundreds of attempts till he finally got it. And it would have been easy to give after attempt number fifty or a hundred or two hundred, but, no, he just kept at it. So I I like that. I like that quality. I'm just like, no. You just keep going. Just keep going. Speaker 0
So he was a, what, a, like, a ten year overnight success or something? Yeah. If you were given ten million dollars tomorrow personally with no not for your fund, just someone wrote you a check, what would you do with it? Speaker 2
Honestly, I would buy a bunch of notes. The the whole overarching reason of setting up the fund and everything we're doing now is to fund my retirement, which I'm hoping to do in the next five years. So that's, nice. So if I had ten million today, yeah, I would go and do that and have my retirement funded. Speaker 0
Sounds great. What is a book or two that you could recommend? You mentioned a couple earlier. Any others? Speaker 2
The great ones to get started. If you haven't read them already, Rich Dad Poor Dad for sure is it's one of those life changing books. Yeah. We call it millionaire mind, but I think that there's a longer title. Secrets of the Millionaire Mind, I think it's called. Howard Becker. Mhmm. Yeah. Also fantastic. Just just to open your mind, look at things differently. The third one I would say, Darren Hardy, the compound effect. Speaker 0
That's a good point. Speaker 2
Also Yep. Fantastic. Just little changes over time result in massive change. Speaker 0
It's very true. What is one question that I have not asked that you wish I had? Speaker 2
No. I don't know. I think we did a pretty good job. Speaker 0
Been pretty thorough. What about your fund? Are you are you able to talk about the intricacies of the fund more? Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's a five zero six c Yeah. Which means, I am allowed to talk about it. I can advertise and all that stuff. Also means that it's open to accredited investors. So people that make at least two hundred thousand dollars a year or have a net worth of over a million dollars outside of the primary residence. It's really made for people who just wanna set it and forget it. Yeah. It's it's a great investment in an IRA to help build up your IRA fund. It's it's a good investment, honestly and truly. And, again, I know that sounds like a plug, but it really is. Yeah. It's just a good place to put your money. And It's a minor, of course, but notes is a great set. Speaker 0
Absolutely. So is it a how long is the commitment? What do you does, do you pay distributions monthly, quarterly? How does that work? Speaker 2
Sure. Yeah. So it's a the minimum investment's fifty thousand. Okay. We're doing a five year term Speaker 0
K. Speaker 2
And, raising five million, and we pay out eight percent with quarterly distributions. Speaker 0
Got it. Okay. Yeah. I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's and and with all of your experience, you've, you know, with, I mean, even the curves experience and and the fix and flips and and then creating seller creating notes, doing the seller financing, the contracts on that side, working for a hedge fund. And, you know, this wasn't an overnight thing where you're like, oh, I'm just gonna start a note fund and ask for Speaker 2
Yeah. Speaker 0
People's money. You've got a lot Speaker 2
of No. And, you know, beware the the weekend warrior that went to a a course for three days and Absolutely. They can do it all. And then a nice Speaker 0
nice thing too, the fact that you're out you're front and center. You're you're out there. Yeah. Chris and I Chris, Stephanie, and I have talked about this. It's you know, you got a podcast. You got a an event that you're the face of. Mhmm. You can't really run too far. Speaker 2
No. Exactly. Speaker 0
If you're gonna try to steal people's money or do something, you know, that, you know, that you then it's it's gonna be a tough one. We'll be able to we'll be able to track you down. So Yeah. I think someone who's out there in the in the public eye a little bit, like like, you and I are a little bit is, you know, we're, in a sense, more more trustworthy, than some somebody you've never who you never see. So Yeah. Nathan Turner, this has been awesome, my friend. Yeah. Anything you wanna add before we sign off? Speaker 2
You know, just in in going back to the title adversity to abundance, just keep just keep going and just it can be a rough ride, but just keep going. There's light around the corner. It's it's there. Just keep going. Speaker 0
Absolutely. And and your website is earnest investing dot com. Is there anywhere else, we should direct people? Speaker 2
You can go there or to the conference website, Diversified Mortgage Expo. Both of them connect with each other. So, yeah, have a look. Awesome. I know you're active Speaker 0
on LinkedIn and some some other platforms. So fantastic, Nathan. This has been really good. Thanks again. Speaker 2
Hey. My pleasure. Thank you. Speaker 0
And to the listener, thank you for spending your most valuable resources with us, which is your time and specifically your attention during that time. We appreciate that. So check out our website adversity to abundance dot com, and we'll talk to you later. Thanks all. Take care. Thanks. Speaker 1
Thank you for joining us on from adversity to abundance. We hope today's episode has equipped you with valuable insights and practical advice to elevate your real estate journey. For more inspiring stories and resources, visit us at w w w dot adversity to abundance dot com. If this episode has inspired you, please share it with a friend who could also benefit from our conversation. Together, let's turn adversity into abundance. Until next time, keep building your mental fitness and your real estate empire. Speaker 0
Hey there. It's Jamie Bateman. Ever felt boxed in by life's challenges? Dive into my new book, From Adversity to Abundance, inspiring stories of mental, physical, and financial transformation, available now on Amazon. From a former bank robber's redemption to a young entrepreneur's victory over hurdles, these stories are not just inspiration. They're the road maps to your transformation. Whether for you or as a powerful gift to friends and family, especially those who might not tune into podcasts, This book is a beacon to a life of abundance. Ignite that inner fire and set your course to the life you've imagined. Purchase yours today on Amazon and light the path for someone you love. 
